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Post by shattered on Jan 19, 2009 14:36:10 GMT -5
I'm curious about the answer to "Do you love her?"
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Post by JimB on Jan 19, 2009 15:27:40 GMT -5
I'm curious about the answer to "Do you love her?" I had to think about it, but I do, certainly. Of course I also love my mom, my friends, you guys, music, my old jeans, etc. I just don't think the love I feel for her really stands out. There's a problem with the question, though, and that is the underlying assumption that love means something similar for all of us. I know I have a different experience of love than most, and I express it differently than most. That's one of the reasons I mention how challenging it can be to be in a relationship with me. Dr. Laura's mealy-mouthed truisms aren't going to work for me - that's not my style. All the same, I need the love I do offer to be felt, appreciated, and returned in kind. We did clear the air a bit this weekend. Oddly, though, I don't feel better to the degree I usually do after our intense conversations. We talked about developing some shared goals and becoming more of a team. We also talked about expressing wants and needs more clearly. But I'm starting to wonder if I'm not using the process to try to manufacture more love, when of course it doesn't work that way. Another fact about me is that I get a great deal of satisfaction from helping people. It runs in my family - I'm sure my mom sees my dad as someone in need of her help, which is why she stuck out some pretty bad stuff over the years. My sister turned her desire to help into a nursing career, which she loves, but the same tendency has put her into some bad relationships. I don't think I'm in a bad relationship, but I wonder if I haven't started to consider my gf to be a sort of "project". I don't want to be placed in the position of mentor or adviser - I want a relationship of equals. But the pleasure I get from helping someone in need is intensified when it's someone I care about personally, and that can feel a lot like love. Maybe that's a big part of what love is.... I have a lot invested in this relationship. 5 years of my history is valuable to me, and we also own property together. I'm not going to do anything drastic based on a couple weeks of midwinter angst, but at the same time, it occurs to me I should set some short term personal goals based on my relationship needs.
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Post by jules on Jan 19, 2009 22:54:20 GMT -5
Another fact about me is that I get a great deal of satisfaction from helping people. It runs in my family - I'm sure my mom sees my dad as someone in need of her help, which is why she stuck out some pretty bad stuff over the years. My sister turned her desire to help into a nursing career, which she loves, but the same tendency has put her into some bad relationships. I don't think I'm in a bad relationship, but I wonder if I haven't started to consider my gf to be a sort of "project". I don't want to be placed in the position of mentor or adviser - I want a relationship of equals. But the pleasure I get from helping someone in need is intensified when it's someone I care about personally, and that can feel a lot like love. Maybe that's a big part of what love is.... Oh, I so hear you on that. Only... I know for sure that it's not a pattern I wish to partake in again unless it is mutual -- not simultaneous necessarily, but taking turns, y'know? I want to learn as much as I teach, be nurtured as much as I nurture, maybe not in the same way but in an equally fulfilling way. I will admit to getting pleasure from giving and feeling needed, but it needs to be more than that if I were to get seriously involved with someone again. Anyway, just rambling purely based on my own POV -- just I get the nurturing/mentoring instinct. Part of me thinks that is a part of love because it is a part of growth. Then again, I've been trying awfully hard lately to sort of define what "love" is, or what it is supposed to be, and I'm having a devil of a time doing so. Hmm... this gives me an idea for a spin-off post...
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Post by ionysis on Jan 20, 2009 4:46:45 GMT -5
Hi JimB,
I've not been posting much but I've been reading this thread and I thought I'd throw my 2 cents worth in.
Sorry you're having a bit of a hum-ho time right now. Many of your points seem very practical and carefully thought through BUT I think there is a more fundamental issue here.
I happen to believe that loving someone is a choice. Of course the underlying emotion has to be there but I truly believe the only way you really feel as you are "supposed" to feel is by mentally making an absolute descision to love the other person no matter what.
I, like you, have a tendency to want to help people - my fiance is, I have to admit, a bit of a "project" for me, he's had a really tough life, he has suffered terribly in the past and struggles in many ways still - with his OCD, financially, and other ways. Making him happy is my "project", giving him the love and the life he hasn't had the good fortune to experience yet. Because I love him I'm prepared to commit my entire life to doing that.
But that is the key really - commitment. I believe that love is not something that just happens, not after the first few months. It is something you create in yourself because of the commitment you have made. You choose to love your partner every morning you wake up. You choose to love them even when they are being obnoxious, spiteful, grouchy, whatever. Beacuse you've made up your mind that you will.
I don't think you've made up your mind.
From all I've read here and on Ojar it appears to me that DOUBT is the absolute nemesis to sucessful relationships. As long as you are questioning whether this person is the one for you you are never going to truly feel that they are. As long as you remain mentally and emotionally uncommitted - even fractionally - you can't feel an abiding and lasting "love" for someone.
It is only when you decide mentally to committ, come hell or high water, to loving your partner forever and always that you lose that "what if" feeling. The nagging question mark over is this The One. IMO The One is the person you CHOOSE it to be.
Of course there may be very good reasons why you haven't mentally and emotionally decided to commit utterly to V. But until you make that irrevocable decision you'll continue to feel this way. And she will continue to sense it. Yes, this makes her love you more, it makes her love you desperately - because she can feel, subconsciously if not consciously, that you haven't decided. There is room to lose you. This in turn makes you less likely to decide because you don't fear losing her - being without her is still a possibility you are actively considering.
I know I risk sounding like Freckles here but I do think after 5 years (hell I'd have said after 2 MAX) you should KNOW if this person is someone you want to spend the rest of your life with.
The expression that springs to mind is "Sh*t or get off the pot"!
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Post by shattered on Jan 20, 2009 9:36:42 GMT -5
Wow. Ion nailed it.
Nailed it.
Nailed it.
(BTW, just because Freckles and Dr. Laura believe certain things doesn't mean they can't be true!)
Ion: Is this your Royal Navy guy to whom you're now engaged???
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Post by shattered on Jan 20, 2009 9:50:35 GMT -5
I'm curious about the answer to "Do you love her?" I had to think about it, but I do, certainly. Of course I also love my mom, my friends, you guys, music, my old jeans, etc. I just don't think the love I feel for her really stands out. There's a problem with the question, though, and that is the underlying assumption that love means something similar for all of us. I know I have a different experience of love than most, and I express it differently than most. That's one of the reasons I mention how challenging it can be to be in a relationship with me. Dr. Laura's mealy-mouthed truisms aren't going to work for me - that's not my style. All the same, I need the love I do offer to be felt, appreciated, and returned in kind. We did clear the air a bit this weekend. Oddly, though, I don't feel better to the degree I usually do after our intense conversations. We talked about developing some shared goals and becoming more of a team. We also talked about expressing wants and needs more clearly. But I'm starting to wonder if I'm not using the process to try to manufacture more love, when of course it doesn't work that way. Another fact about me is that I get a great deal of satisfaction from helping people. It runs in my family - I'm sure my mom sees my dad as someone in need of her help, which is why she stuck out some pretty bad stuff over the years. My sister turned her desire to help into a nursing career, which she loves, but the same tendency has put her into some bad relationships. I don't think I'm in a bad relationship, but I wonder if I haven't started to consider my gf to be a sort of "project". I don't want to be placed in the position of mentor or adviser - I want a relationship of equals. But the pleasure I get from helping someone in need is intensified when it's someone I care about personally, and that can feel a lot like love. Maybe that's a big part of what love is.... I have a lot invested in this relationship. 5 years of my history is valuable to me, and we also own property together. I'm not going to do anything drastic based on a couple weeks of midwinter angst, but at the same time, it occurs to me I should set some short term personal goals based on my relationship needs. OK, I feel that "I had to think about it" says it all. That's not something you should have to think about, IMO. Also, I don't think the qualification and definition-searching is a good sign. Of course many of us have different ideas of love -- but basically, when we talk about that one, unique kind of love -- romantic love -- a lot of people pretty much agree. You love your parents, family, and friends. Yes, of course, we all love ours, too. But none of those ties compares to the bond with that one special person. And, no, you don't "love" us here on hugthat. I was talking about true love, not liking, interest, affection, etc, but love. And I think it's clear that my question "Do you love her" did not mean do you love her the way you love a friend or your brother, or your favorite aunt or your best buddy from high school, but it meant, do you love her the way a man loves a woman. I feel that your answer -- having to think about it, all these qualifications, useless attempts at definitions (if ever there was something undefiniable, it is love) -- says that you don't love her in the way necessary for the relationship to last. I mean, picture yourself being in love and wanting to spend your life with a woman, and you ask her whether she loves you, and she 1) has to think about it before answering, and 2) qualifies it with "well, gee, what does love really mean, I love my old jeans, too" -- OMG! And there is one sentence that sums it all up: "I just don't think the love I feel for her really stands out." What more do you need to know? Sorry if this sounds badgering -- that is not my intention -- I'm just trying to be clear. Also, you don't HAVE to love her, of course. This isn't about making you out to be a bad guy, or trying to push you to marry her, but about being direct and, hopefully, triggering some thoughts, ideas, or even emotions that might be helpful to you in clarifying what you really want. Good luck to you both!
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Post by freckles on Jan 20, 2009 12:03:53 GMT -5
Wow. Ion nailed it. Nailed it. Nailed it. (BTW, just because Freckles and Dr. Laura believe certain things doesn't mean they can't be true!) Ion: Is this your Royal Navy guy to whom you're now engaged??? If you listen to DR Laura Slessenger on the Radio You will hear a lot of good advice 90 to 95 Percent of it is right on And a lot of times the Callers are Suprised and the way they are looking at the Problem and Solution are not even close to what her advice is www.drlaura.com/main/
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Post by JimB on Jan 20, 2009 12:29:48 GMT -5
(BTW, just because Freckles and Dr. Laura believe certain things doesn't mean they can't be true!) Yes it does.
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Post by sheyd on Jan 20, 2009 13:02:10 GMT -5
I have so many thoughts on this I just have to open another window to get quotes! I care deeply for my partner, but I feel like the emotions I feel towards her are not as strong as they have been in the past. Yeah, that is pretty much normal - and even the way it SHOULD be, don't you think? Unless you want to chase after that constant drama of the initial crush? After being with someone for 5 years and living together for 2, the relationship pretty much is what it is - it's not going to change significantly. That isn't true - and you can't even force it to be true. Both of you do and are changing. The fact that you even MIGHT consider kids would have shocked me a few years ago. And if you WANT the relationship to change - you ARE half of it... It can at least change half-way - and her reaction to your changes would change the rest. You have a CHOICE there. Besides, I'm sure to some degree I'm trying to distance myself from the intensity of her emotions. Which is the opposite of helpful - the more distant you are, the more she will try to reach out to you with herself. Try BEING there for a little while, emotionally, and see if things don't settle down for her too. If you feel like the relationship isn't working... then its not. Absolutely. Which means you need to work on it - water that grass - put in more effort yourself. You shouldn't abandon things that aren't working until you are sure they are irreparably broken. I have also learned that there are those out there that are the perfect match.. think of others before themselves.. and give love without expecting anything in return. I disagree with this, however. NO ONE is a perfect match - and if they are for a short while, they won't be forever, because people grow and change throughout their lives. Also - people who think of others before themselves and give love like that are great - so everyone should strive to BE one - and a worthy partner - as much as trying to find one so they can sit back and be pampered while the other gives up themselves. But I'm starting to wonder if I'm not using the process to try to manufacture more love, when of course it doesn't work that way. Who says it doesn’t work that way? The time and effort you devote to something DOES create feelings for you about its worth. Love is no different. It takes work, and selflessness, and being able to wade through and wait through the bad times. And if the love is there and greater for the work at the end of the process, where is the bad in all that? Do we really think something that is so large should take no work to maintain? I don't want to be placed in the position of mentor or adviser - I want a relationship of equals. But the pleasure I get from helping someone in need is intensified when it's someone I care about personally, and that can feel a lot like love. Maybe that's a big part of what love is.... Yes, I think it IS. Too much of how we see love today IS about selfishness – what can you do for me, how can you make me feel good, how do you help me be and get what I want… Love IS that, but it is also what can I do for you, how can I make you feel good, how can I help you. Sometimes it is balanced more where you are the caretaker, sometimes where you are cared for. Unless you think you NEVER need support, affection, love – you WILL be the one needing sometimes… It is ok if for awhile you are care-taking more than her – doesn’t she EVER take care of you too? OK, I feel that "I had to think about it" says it all. That's not something you should have to think about, IMO. I disagree with this too… I think there even will be times when you will answer NO emphatically if you are truly in a relationship for the long haul. Heck, I don’t even like my kids sometimes! The real true loving of a person, long term, is not about the flowery romance of the moment and starry eyed belief that they are “the one”. It is about the grouchy person who won’t help out with the puking dog in the middle of the night, the person who spent way too much on some frippery you don’t agree with, etc. No one is perfect – if you can TRULY think about it and still say you love them… when you TRULY know them and they you in the day-to-day world… that means more in the long run. Also, I don't think the qualification and definition-searching is a good sign. Of course many of us have different ideas of love -- but basically, when we talk about that one, unique kind of love -- romantic love -- a lot of people pretty much agree. Except I don’t think people DO agree! I think the idea that people agree is what gets us in trouble… In fact assuming your partner has the same ideas and definitions of love is what causes a lot of fights! I know it has in my relationship! And I think it's clear that my question "Do you love her" did not mean do you love her the way you love a friend or your brother, or your favorite aunt or your best buddy from high school, but it meant, do you love her the way a man loves a woman. But men love women in different ways. For some that means lust, for others it is seeing them as family, for some it means listening/paying attention/caring about what she thinks, for others it means making sure they are provided for financially… Some it is as a companion through life… but it isn’t an assumption anyone can make that one person’s definition is easy or the same as others’… I think the fact that he is thinking about it in terms of HOW he loves her is actually better and perhaps gives way upon which to build what you want. Overall – I guess I think since you HAVE invested this much time into it, because she HAS proven herself to be someone you can “get along” with over a longish period of time, it should be worth the work to discover how good it can get. That means REAL work, though – actually putting your head and heart into TRYING to make things better. You are in control of your attitude. If you are going to stick around – do your best at it. Don’t assume you know how it will turn out, or who she is, or how far it can go until you TRULY TRY. If it doesn’t work, you will at least know you gave your best self and it just isn’t where you wanted to be.
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Post by redskyatnight on Jan 20, 2009 15:45:10 GMT -5
Sometimes I find when I think out loud, the answer presents itself to me. Based on the number or replies, I guess that hasn't happened. I'm responding without reading all the replies, mostly because I have a headache right now and its too much brain power to digest everything. You have done a great job putting into words what is bothering you. Can you do the same with what you like about her? - She and I are dramatically different people on many levels, some of which are pretty fundamental. - Our relationship isn't nearly as compelling to me since we moved in together. - I care deeply for my partner, but I feel like the emotions I feel towards her are not as strong as they have been in the past. - After being with someone for 5 years and living together for 2, the relationship pretty much is what it is - it's not going to change significantly. - She doesn't share my attitude towards any of the following: personal growth, financial responsibility, intellectual stimulation, the arts, or our mutual roles in the relationship. All of which are very important to me. Dramatically different people - on fundamental levels.......Did you know about the fundamental differences when you started dating her? How did you overlook them in the past? Since you moved in together, she isn't as much of a challenge. You know you have her and maybe that scares you? If that was all you posted, I'd think you had a low level fear of committment, but having the same values about growth and finances can be real deal breakers in a relationship. Perhaps you are dealing with committment thoughts, knowing your differences and wondering if you can struggle through them for the long haul. It sounds like there are many differences and when the other person is not willing to work with you, to compromise, you have to settle for marginal interaction for the long-haul. Besides, I'm sure to some degree I'm trying to distance myself from the intensity of her emotions. Are you talking about ups and downs? or the intensity of her emotions toward you?
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