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Post by sheyd on Jun 9, 2008 11:31:38 GMT -5
Thats a different "Republican" LOL! I am talking about the feudal system, which was called "republican" - very different from the US's republican party! Although it is funny, Australia's political system republicans are very different from ours too!
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Post by Phyxius on Jun 9, 2008 11:49:00 GMT -5
Thats a different "Republican" LOL! I am talking about the feudal system, which was called "republican" - very different from the US's republican party! Although it is funny, Australia's political system republicans are very different from ours too! Feudal system. Not too far off of what modern Republicans would endorse. Without the whole two-way responsibility, that is...
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Post by Mel (cherry) on Jun 9, 2008 11:52:56 GMT -5
Yeah okay whatever you say dragon boy. Who are the ones trying to make it illegal to NOT have health insurance?...........oh yeah that would be YOUR beloved Democraps
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Post by sheyd on Jun 9, 2008 11:59:18 GMT -5
Yeah - its that two-way responsibility part I liked. Not that it worked great all the time, but for the better lords it was a benefit to all. The lords starved right along with the peasants, and there was often loyalty both ways.
No system is like its ideal - but I like one where everyone feels responsible for everyone else - where we all have a conscience, not just self-interest.
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Post by jules on Jun 9, 2008 12:28:13 GMT -5
No system is like its ideal - but I like one where everyone feels responsible for everyone else - where we all have a conscience, not just self-interest. socialism
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Post by JimB on Jun 9, 2008 12:36:35 GMT -5
I guess what I mean is.........how do we teach people to listen and educate themselves rather than follow the masses? To think for themselves, popular opinion or not, rather than be lead? I would argue that our educational system, if not society itself, encourages people to be led rather than lead. How many classrooms have you been in where the teacher praises the students who think against the grain of the status quo? How many parents are truly consistently open to outside-the-box thinking? So I would suggest that from a very early age, we're encouraged to be followers. Interesting tangent to this idea - I read an article not long ago that noted the irony of "perfect attendance" awards. Really, that's a holdover from a manufacturing-based economy, when consistency had more value than excellence. We arguably haven't been a manufacturing-based economy for over 30 years now, and we need to be training our children accordingly. So I think the answer to your question lies more in the philosophy of education rather than the philosophy of government. Sound political and social decisions are a fringe benefit of a well-rounded education.
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Post by Phyxius on Jun 9, 2008 12:44:35 GMT -5
Yeah okay whatever you say dragon boy. Who are the ones trying to make it illegal to NOT have health insurance?...........oh yeah that would be YOUR beloved Democraps Or just turn them out into the streets like your little tin god Reagan? Sure thing, kiddo...
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Post by Mel (cherry) on Jun 9, 2008 12:45:14 GMT -5
Very good point Jim. I actually was talking about the "dumbing down of the schools" recently with someone.
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Post by Mel (cherry) on Jun 9, 2008 12:47:47 GMT -5
Yeah okay whatever you say dragon boy. Who are the ones trying to make it illegal to NOT have health insurance?...........oh yeah that would be YOUR beloved Democraps Or just turn them out into the streets like your little tin god Reagan? Sure thing, kiddo... The funny thing is Phyx, that I don't agree with many things on either side. I can tell you there is no way in hell I would vote for either Hillary or Obama but honestly it is only a little worse than McCain really. Too busy trying to make everyone happy these days, and making sure no one's toes or feelings get bruised and no one is realizing that it is only making problems bigger.
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Post by Phyxius on Jun 9, 2008 12:54:33 GMT -5
Or just turn them out into the streets like your little tin god Reagan? Sure thing, kiddo... The funny thing is Phyx, that I don't agree with many things on either side. I can tell you there is no way in hell I would vote for either Hillary or Obama but honestly it is only a little worse than McCain really. Too busy trying to make everyone happy these days, and making sure no one's toes or feelings get bruised and no one is realizing that it is only making problems bigger. Damn it all!!!! I'm doing my best here to pick a fight and you're going to give a reasoned response? What the hell kind of fun is that?!?!?!?!? ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Mel (cherry) on Jun 9, 2008 13:18:01 GMT -5
LOL, okay sorry, I misplaced the script for a minute. Is this better? The thing with you liberal democraps is that you keep waving around these "bandaids" that in the end do nothing more but drain more life from those who cannot afford it.
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Post by Phyxius on Jun 9, 2008 13:52:49 GMT -5
Yeah, but if you Reich-wingers hadn't sucked the life out of the economy in the first place, we wouldn't need the fucking band-aid to begin with. A healthy middle-class doesn't need to be propped up. Unfortuately, the "Rob from the poor and give to the rich" party has made that necessary.
Ahhhh. I feel better already... ;D
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Post by kittenhart on Jun 9, 2008 14:01:04 GMT -5
How do we teach people to listen and educate themselves rather than follow the masses? To think for themselves, popular opinion or not, rather than be lead? If you look closely at the things you've learned that have really changed your thinking dramatically, I think most of us would admit that it's the things that surprised us because they didn't turn out how we had anticipated that had most profound effect. The discrepent event. The unsupported hypothesis. The times when people you thought you could count on disappointed you. Or the times when you expected the worst from someone, and they surprised you with their decency. When something doesn't go as planned, you are left with the mental discomfort that motivates you to explain it, the cognitive dissonance that drives something into your memory. These are the situations that encourage people to think on their own, but they are not always so easily engineered inside a classroom.....and sometimes also, for some learners, the classroom is the only stable, predictable environment they have in their lives- so it becomes a balancing act of how much mental discomfort you feel safe causing. Being a creative thinker who thinks for yourself isn't necessarily compatible with happiness....let alone with the socialization goals of society. I've had classes of "gifted" students where someone cried EVERY SINGLE DAY....I would walk into that classroom with a fire extinguisher in one hand and a box of Kleenex in the other....literally (and metaphorically) This is how citizens grow. Quality public education supports a strong democracy.....but don't kid yourself into thinking that an entire society of free-thinkers is the way to go....democracy also needs the sheep who quietly follow along with the herd.....for all of our sakes.
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Post by Mel (cherry) on Jun 9, 2008 14:55:56 GMT -5
Hmmmmmm, seems to me that it all spiraled out of control when too many people started whining about life not being fair Phyx, like that all encompasing smothering PC movement ;D
You make a great point Kitten. We do need the balance of both, but I fear that too many are sheep these days. We used to expect more both of ourselves and other and our kids. Nowdays it isn't at all unusual for an almost thirty year old man to still live off his family (ie my ex). We used to expect our kids to help out around the home/farm and now we "bribe" them to be a contributing memeber of society.
It is true that the things that have made me question things the closest have been where 'supposed to' met 'real life'. Things that don't add up, things that confuse us, lies that meet truth and fade in the bright light of it, yes, they do make us question more and seek new paths. But too many times, the complacency bred from the crib keeps that very thing from happening.
Besides, it isn't about comfort as much as it is about truth and survival. Are we really going to remain as we are if we keep going this direction?
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Post by redskyatnight on Jun 9, 2008 15:42:44 GMT -5
Politics are complicated. There are hundreds of variables that go into the decisions that our leaders make. I'm sure we are not made aware of most of those variables. To boil it all down to Democrat and Republican is too simple and usually name throwing and anger enter into the discussion so that nothing productive happens.
I agree that people will make decisions based on what is best for them; therefore, JimB's right on the money when he says making decisions has to come from education. The unspoken lessons we teach our kids carry over to adult life. If we want an alturistic population, willing to make sacrifices for those less fortunate, then the less fortunate can not take advantage of it.
If we want a cooperative society where everyone pulls their weight to the best of their ability, we need some serious education reform. But on the other hand, if we all pitch in, with some giving more than others, but everyone receiving equal, we lose then entire Capitalism that drives our economy.
Dang, too many variables to make any sense out of this.
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