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Post by goods on Jul 9, 2008 10:28:54 GMT -5
Goods - wait until you have one. Yes, you have to let them get hurt a little - but death isn't "hurt a little". Teaching them to be an adult is educating them so they CAN make the right decisions (even though they often won't - heck, we adults often don't). But wait until you are the one watching and waiting on the sidelines and knowing the price of failure could take away the being that means the world to you. It isn't so easy then to wait and watch the mistakes happen. RO, no, I didn't know he had a son, although it doesn't change my feelings on it... I also don't think people should coddle kids, but drunken stupors are too dangerous to let kids "try and fail" on. Especially without the full knowledge of what it can do to them (the blood alcohol limits, etc.) I am just imagining being the mom to that girl in the article... It isn't coddling to try to protect from that. Not sure where I said getting kids drunk is a great idea... (though I did post and retract a bit of an over the top joke earlier) seems like some people have their world view and are very close minded about any information that may change it. Not only is my 16 almost 17yr old a better kid than I deserve or could wish for, I got a lot experience helping raise my now 26 yr old sister, 24 yr old brother, 22 yr old sister. All college grads, all employed, all happy, none of which jumped off a building or crashed their cars while under the influence, smoke or drink excessively.. None of which were taught drinking was something to fear, none of which wore helmets while riding bikes, the girls had knee injuries from soccer and yet they still played, the youngest played for her University Club Team for 4 years. NONE of which live at home. Their father, my step-father, is a PhD Psychologist, who is on contract with most of the public schools in the area and runs DUI education classes. Back to my son, I have zero worries about him out drinking/smoking with friends, though they do. AND at my sister's wedding in April he had a beer or two and a cigar! (don't worry his girlfriend was driving) I am completely confident that my kid could be dropped off in the middle of LA or NYC on his own and within a week he would have a job and an apt. So perhaps none of you here are as qualified as I am to discuss the issue of children becoming adults and the risks therein. Oh and JC stop being such a fucking prude.
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Post by Mel (cherry) on Jul 9, 2008 10:37:53 GMT -5
Oh and JC stop being such a fucking prude. I've been following with interest. I don't have to worry for quite a while but I'm watching avidly my bf with his three teenage boys. And listening to others' points of view and like JC said, tossing the rest. But I about snorted Sprite out my nose at that last line. ;D
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Post by sheyd on Jul 9, 2008 11:03:49 GMT -5
With my dad dying from emphysema, I think if my kid tried lighting up near me, at 17 or 35 I might kill them myself - they would die quicker and cleaner! I also raised a niece, btw - who was on her own at 18, has a two year degree and a nice job, nice house, and is doing just fine, so I guess that makes me about the same qualified? I am with JC on this one (nice to be on the same side again! ), I wouldn't want my kid drinking at 17, especially not away from me. The fact that it is illegal alone would give me pause, nor would I want to encourage it as a form of recreation. Not that I will have a cow when my kids DO drink (I am not naive, I know they will) but I will always be letting them know how best to stay safe. I am also for not coddling kids, but at the same time, disregarding safety items "just because" is not something to be proud of. Lots of people drive around without wearing seat belts, too, and stay safe - but it lets some people die needlessly in accidents too. I rode around without a bike helmet as a kid too - but now they have them and they stop kids from getting seriously injured or killed. Not that my safety record is perfect, but when there are safer options, it doesn't make it a bad thing to follow them. That isn't coddling, that is using common sense. Injuries do happen - and people shouldn't stop what they are doing or turn into big babies over it - but taking steps to reduce serious injury... that isn't something to be ashamed of. Goods - you have LOTS of good points about not handing things to kids on silver platters- not every kid wins every time, etc - but when you apply that to safety, it just doesn't hold up the same.
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Post by goods on Jul 9, 2008 12:12:55 GMT -5
The fact that it is illegal alone would give me pause, nor would I want to encourage it as a form of recreation. So you think the government should be raising your children? In other countries ie France it is ok for children to drink wine, et al. So I guess if you would take your girls there, they could drink alcohol because the government says it is ok. Somehow it is unsafe for them here? I am also for not coddling kids, but at the same time, disregarding safety items "just because" is not something to be proud of. Lots of people drive around without wearing seat belts, too, and stay safe - but it lets some people die needlessly in accidents too. I rode around without a bike helmet as a kid too - but now they have them and they stop kids from getting seriously injured or killed. Not that my safety record is perfect, but when there are safer options, it doesn't make it a bad thing to follow them. That isn't coddling, that is using common sense. Injuries do happen - and people shouldn't stop what they are doing or turn into big babies over it - but taking steps to reduce serious injury... that isn't something to be ashamed of. Goods - you have LOTS of good points about not handing things to kids on silver platters- not every kid wins every time, etc - but when you apply that to safety, it just doesn't hold up the same. You are totally missing it.... getting bumps and bruises as a kid makes you a safer adult.... You learn your limitations. My kid didn't wear a helmet riding a bike or skateboard, BUT he does wear one riding his dirt bikes, which around the age of 11 he was riding 75cc and now has a 125cc. He also wears his seatbelt. Both of which I did also early on.... NOT because the government told me to do so. I don't need the government to raise my kid or to tell me how I should live my life. When I was about 12 I rode my skateboard sans a helmet down a freshly blacktopped very steep street.... last thing I remember is seeing a pebble in my path, two hours later I woke at my cousin's house on the couch, bruised head and scraped ankle, my R.N. mother by my side. Guess what... I learned a limitation that day, same as many other times in my youth, playing with BB guns, fireworks, building tree houses and playing with chemical sets.... OH THE HORROR! Today monkey bars are removed from play grounds, ground up rubber tires replace the pavement. Kids do not learn any limitations, they go through their youth wrapped in bubble wrap only to enter young adulthood needing to test their limits, only now they have cars, they have access to alcohol and drugs.... They become the stars of Jackass, they put videos of themselves jumping out of moving cars, making various explosive devices on youtube..... Make no mistake, if a child does not learn it's limitations from the day he is born, if he does not learn that the stove is hot and he should not touch it, he will learn a much harsher lesson in early adulthood. Do you think all the risky behavior of today's young adults, smoking and drinking, tattoos and piercings is not them pushing their limits, trying to discover what they are capable of handling and what they can not, if you do not think that is related to the way they are being raised today in our bubble wrap, helicopter parent society, then you are a fool, blinded by your own stubbornness and closed-mindedness to see the facts right out in front of you. (not necessarily directed at Shey, but anyone reading)
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Post by sheyd on Jul 9, 2008 13:49:22 GMT -5
The fact that it is illegal alone would give me pause, nor would I want to encourage it as a form of recreation. So you think the government should be raising your children? In other countries ie France it is ok for children to drink wine, et al. So I guess if you would take your girls there, they could drink alcohol because the government says it is ok. Somehow it is unsafe for them here? First of all - it isn't a matter of the government raising my kids - -I- am raising my kids to be law-abiding. I am all for civil disobedience if I think something is over the top - but it is in deliberate protest, not just because I don't want to be bothered. I also personally think there is nothing wrong with a law that keeps drinking limited to when a person's brain is as developed as it will be for impulse control. My kids wouldn't drink in another country, either - it isn't good for a developing brain. Plus, you missed the part where I don't want to encourage drinking as a form of recreation. You are totally missing it.... getting bumps and bruises as a kid makes you a safer adult.... You learn your limitations. This I agree with - when it is limited to areas of bumps and bruises, cuts, etc. My kid didn't wear a helmet riding a bike or skateboard, BUT he does wear one riding his dirt bikes, Yet bikes and skateboards can be just as dangerous - ask any nurse or doc. I am not a stickler for a helmet on a bike, either, but my kids have only a small yard to ride in, they can't build up speed have anything they would really hurt themselves on. On a bigger trip or outside the yard, it is required. Why? Because teaching a child to use safety precautions is as important as letting them get those bumps when they are stupid. Teaching them to think ahead and think of what can happen when they aren't careful is just as important when that big wide world opens up. When I was about 12 I rode my skateboard sans a helmet down a freshly blacktopped very steep street.... last thing I remember is seeing a pebble in my path, two hours later I woke at my cousin's house on the couch, bruised head and scraped ankle, my R.N. mother by my side. And you were DAMN lucky. But if your kid is as smart as you say, he should learn as much from that story as from doing it himself - when he may not be as lucky. Today monkey bars are removed from play grounds, ground up rubber tires replace the pavement. And thank god - kids were killed that way. Wanna talk to an old aquaintance of mine who was mildly brain damaged from that pavement? There is letting a kid get a mild burn on a fingertip, and there is letting them pull a whole pan of boiling water down on their heads. There are REASONS those things changed, and it was because of deaths, not mild little bumps. Do you think all the risky behavior of today's young adults, smoking and drinking, tattoos and piercings is not them pushing their limits, trying to discover what they are capable of handling and what they can not, if you do not think that is related to the way they are being raised today in our bubble wrap, helicopter parent society, then you are a fool, blinded by your own stubbornness and closed-mindedness to see the facts right out in front of you. (not necessarily directed at Shey, but anyone reading) The risky behavior kids exhibit today and in every other generation is because that is what they DO. Yes, now they have even more ways of damaging themselves and they have better access to it. And yes, some naturally bad consequences along the way help them realize their limits - but so does making those cars safer, so does teaching them to think ahead, so does letting them understand consequences from an intellectual standpoint so that even when they stupidly follow their impulses, they might stop before REAL damage is done.
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Post by redskyatnight on Jul 9, 2008 16:22:11 GMT -5
Make no mistake, if a child does not learn it's limitations from the day he is born, if he does not learn that the stove is hot and he should not touch it, he will learn a much harsher lesson in early adulthood. Amen!
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Post by Phoenixx on Jul 10, 2008 10:26:17 GMT -5
In the UK the drinking age is 18, but kids as young as 11 are regularly seen getting drunk every day. This country has a huge problem with binge drinking. I think the actual problem is the different attitude. In Europe its perfectly normal for kids to have a glass of wine with the evening meal, but the attitude is different because its seen as a 'taste' thing rather than a get-drunk-as-hell-thing. Whereas in England its perfectly normal to get as drunk as possible, to the point where you even forget the entire night before. When I was an undergrad I saw people get drunk to the point of stupidity. And even now, on nights out, I see people sleeping on the streets, or being sick at the side of the pavement. How attractive. As a woman, can you imagine what can happen? As a man can you imagine being beat down/stolen from because of too much drink?
Do I agree with it? Nope. Not at all. But are you gonna stop them? No. I guess all you can do is educate your children and tell them not to drink. I personally dont drink, never have and probably never will, but I have friends and family who drink and they manage to do it normally. I can be out until 6am without ever having a single alcoholic drink but I dont look down on those who want to enjoy a drink. I guess we now live in a society where drinking responsibly is not the norm anymore.
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Post by rocko on Jul 10, 2008 14:48:48 GMT -5
I think there are different issues here. Educating your children about what is out there and making sure they know the dangers is one of them. Another is obeying the law and teaching your kids to do the same. Oh and protecting your kids from major brain injuries vs. just letting them lose.
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Post by freckles on Aug 6, 2008 9:30:14 GMT -5
Alcohol is Bad
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Post by Mel (cherry) on Aug 6, 2008 9:31:37 GMT -5
Too bad life isn't so black and white Freck............wish it was that simple sometimes.
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