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Post by Bobfromacctg on Jul 16, 2008 14:36:04 GMT -5
I'm sorry..I have to add my two cents here:
Shey..you said:
Sorry but this is not true. It is however the perspective that is presented by the media (and you have taken their bait), but if you do some simple research on the breakdown of giving to charities - you will learn the error of your opinion. Conservatives give far more dollars than liberals...Sure you can use yourself as the exception but if you "THink GLobally" you will see that as a rule, that is not the case.
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Post by Bobfromacctg on Jul 16, 2008 14:39:29 GMT -5
As for the topic at hand: He is so Liberal he is as close to being a Communist as you can get. He hates Energy He wants more Taxes He hates Israel He hates People that live in the USA That is my Impression of Obama OMFG. I can not believe that I see this in print. If the constitution is still in effect after BJ Clinton and we survived (barely) thru GWB - I think we will be ok after Obama. HOpefully Bush will not attack Iran (or will convince Israel not too) before he gets out of office. That does however, create a problem since Iran pres has stated that he will destroy Israel... its a problem to say the least...
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Post by Mel (cherry) on Jul 16, 2008 14:42:26 GMT -5
No necesarily, the thing is that people are content to sit back and wait or let the government handle things that used to be the responsibility of the community on a small scale. When we started "cushioning the blow" completely for people, kids etc, we started to see declines that make this less the case. No more expecting them to buckle down and do some of the fighting themselves. It is awful that people actually believe this. I've lived in small towns since coming to a place where I depended on the kindness of others, as well as the majorly flawed state systems. I have been overwhelmed at the types of responses I have gotten motivated by nothing more than people admiring how hard I worked and wanting to ease the burden a bit because they could. Notice the key phrase how hard I worked . That feeds into why your father is a fiscal conservative even though he has had to utilize the system. I see it everyday that I look around where I live and I am disgusted. There is a difference Shey between people who are "lifers" and people who use it as a "stepping stone" when they are forced to. Too many are content to simply exist there forever and never go anywhere else. Yes there are cases of people who cannot and believe it or not, they are among some of the most conservative people I know. I don't believe that a nanny system is the answer. I believe that the more you expect people to get off their asses and contribute to their own well being, the better. Besides, the system does nothing more than keep you at just barely above poverty level and unless you are willing to fight for it, you won't be able to break free. Once they got you, there are a myriad of rules that keep you from managing it, unless you get really lucky. I laughed at this because that is the spin that is said most often and it is absolutely ludicrous. Just because we expect people to get out and do the work themselves as well, instead of babying them thru every tiny step, we are self serving? Help when it is needed is fine and right, but the problem is that people tend to float around waiting to be rescued instead of seeking out what they can do to get out completely. I’m constantly amazed at the amount of information people don’t know about the system even, because they certainly don’t tell you any more than they have to. I’ve had some lucky breaks though, and Im the type of person to go seeking what I don’t know so that I don’t get screwed over if I can help it…… And the fairytales that we read our children all end with happily ever after. I wonder how the Native Americans lived for so long without any government programs ? Funny thing I remember seems to be that when they forced them to stop being existent on the lands and themselves and to rely instead on these benevolent programs they stopped prospering……….. Hmmmmm there is a reason after all they say that idle hands are the devil’s playthings.
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Post by sheyd on Jul 16, 2008 15:08:28 GMT -5
Actually- the natives had a full governing body, usually several systems within systems - AND believed in sharing a lot more equally and caring more globally than our current government. They are the ultimate liberals - with the good of the whole (and by whole I am including the natural environment as well) coming before the individual. It wasn't every unit out for itself, it was share and share alike, none of this I stay rich while others stay poor. I have a lot of respect for that system, but it sure isn't what conservative economics can be based on! Heck - I can't even IMAGINE any conservative being willing to live under those kinds of constrictions those many and varied societies placed on its members!
I agree there are abusers of the system, and that the current system has some vital flaws - but taking away that system will not make things better. Having no system in place is beyond ridiculous, since there ARE many people who need it and use it appropriately. One in four Americans will experience poverty at least once in their life.
I TOTALLY agree with working hard, getting off your ass and do it, and all of that. I think if more people did that we would have a MUCH better society (and I am NOT just talking about those living off the dole - but those who make money and then do nothing with it but sit around enjoying what they have without giving any thought to those who don't have it). If people did that more, there would be NO NEED for "nanny" programs - because grass-roots stuff works better anyway. Unfortunately, many people who don't want to contribute to the "nanny" programs also do nothing on their own. If we truly acted on the "Act Locally" - something I believe in and DO do - there wouldn't be the people stuck in the system, or people getting in the system in the first place.
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Post by Mel (cherry) on Jul 16, 2008 15:13:04 GMT -5
So far better to just herd sheep is the liberal mentality Im hearing from the majority these days................
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Post by freckles on Jul 16, 2008 15:24:14 GMT -5
Actually- the natives had a full governing body, usually several systems within systems - AND believed in sharing a lot more equally and caring more globally than our current government. They are the ultimate liberals - with the good of the whole (and by whole I am including the natural environment as well) coming before the individual. It wasn't every unit out for itself, it was share and share alike, none of this I stay rich while others stay poor. I have a lot of respect for that system, but it sure isn't what conservative economics can be based on! Heck - I can't even IMAGINE any conservative being willing to live under those kinds of constrictions those many and varied societies placed on its members! I agree there are abusers of the system, and that the current system has some vital flaws - but taking away that system will not make things better. Having no system in place is beyond ridiculous, since there ARE many people who need it and use it appropriately. One in four Americans will experience poverty at least once in their life. I TOTALLY agree with working hard, getting off your ass and do it, and all of that. I think if more people did that we would have a MUCH better society (and I am NOT just talking about those living off the dole - but those who make money and then do nothing with it but sit around enjoying what they have without giving any thought to those who don't have it). If people did that more, there would be NO NEED for "nanny" programs - because grass-roots stuff works better anyway. Unfortunately, many people who don't want to contribute to the "nanny" programs also do nothing on their own. If we truly acted on the "Act Locally" - something I believe in and DO do - there wouldn't be the people stuck in the system, or people getting in the system in the first place. Indians Stole Property and Women from Tribes not thier own That was normal and expected
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Post by goods on Jul 16, 2008 15:25:10 GMT -5
Yes yes the American Indian Tribes all lived in harmony and never had any disputes with each other. They never ran herds of buffalo off cliffs, they never built fires.... Yes yes, even then they protected Mother Earth... just listen to Chief Seattle.... Just because no one named Chief Seattle ever existed much less said the crap attributed to him on bumper stickers. That is no reason not to be blindly led into the land of unicorns and rainbows.
You mean there would be no need to forcibly take their earnings and property and give it to someone who has not earned it. Selfish bastards earning a living and then having the gull to use what they earned to benefit themselves and their families. We should give the IRS the right to march into their McMansions, taking whatever will make it fair.
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Post by RO on Jul 16, 2008 15:29:25 GMT -5
Where is the freaking sheep smiley when you need it??? Cherry? Help me out here! I cannot get it to download onto my work pc...
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Post by sheyd on Jul 16, 2008 15:30:36 GMT -5
Most people ARE sheep - they go along in their daily lives, inundated by commercials and commercialism, caring little beyond their immediate selves and family. Take the easy route, take what you can get, hold on to what you have.
I think our goals to NOT be sheep, and NOT just sit back, they are the same. The question is, then, what about BEYOND ourselves. The gov't is not some evil trying to take what you have. Some of the programs are outdated, or have fatal flaws, but then part of the reason we AREN'T sheep is to FIX them, to get involved with them. Simply eliminating them or assuming they are useless because some people abuse them leaves us open to NOT helping members of our community that NEED help that is beyond us.
I can't pay for my own kids' college education, how could I, grass-roots, pay for student loans for others? Yet some poor kid that gets that gov't handout may someday be the researcher that discovers the cure to my kids' future diseases. That doesn't mean I shouldn't hold bakesales with the high schools to get some local scholarships going, but both are necessary. Heck, if there were enough local scholarships, maybe local kids would need those gov't handouts less and those programs would take less money. And my local scholarship won't help that innercity Chicago kid who might be the one to figure it all out, but me creating those scholarships might mean there are more available - including from the gov't - for that kid because local kids won't take them all.
I AM familiar with the systems - and how they trap people, and what it takes to get off of it all. I am also familiar with grassroots programs, some of which end up just like the gov't ones because they get large enough and entrenched enough and people start taking advantage. But without those systems in place, I also know several people who wouldn't have made it, at all. This wouldn't be such a great country then.
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Post by freckles on Jul 16, 2008 15:35:15 GMT -5
Indians were not as Mean if they had thier Women and Kids with them
If they were just the young men
then they would Kill you etc etc
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Post by freckles on Jul 16, 2008 15:36:17 GMT -5
Kind of like Gangs are now
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Post by sheyd on Jul 16, 2008 15:41:56 GMT -5
Yes yes the American Indian Tribes all lived in harmony and never had any disputes with each other. They never ran herds of buffalo off cliffs, they never built fires.... Yes yes, even then they protected Mother Earth... just listen to Chief Seattle.... Just because no one named Chief Seattle ever existed much less said the crap attributed to him on bumper stickers. That is no reason not to be blindly led into the land of unicorns and rainbows. Umm, no, not quite. Didn't say that, actually. There was quite a bit of bloody disputes - my area is well known for them. But they were DEFINITELY a socialist-type society AND had a ruling government of their own. Not only within each family/tribe, but also often across tribes. Although yes, pretty much EVERY tribe was better to Mother Earth than we are now - not exactly a contestable point? You mean there would be no need to forcibly take their earnings and property and give it to someone who has not earned it. Large assumption to make, since many people DO work hard, but still need assistance. And yes - sometimes to give it to people who don't earn it. Disabled people, etc. Like it or not, a good society "takes care of its people". That means that sometimes people who didn't EARN it still DESERVE it. Except if the gov't didn't do it, I doubt everyone would go about helping the disabled and mentally handicapped. Would be nice if they did. Selfish bastards earning a living and then having the gull to use what they earned to benefit themselves and their families. We should give the IRS the right to march into their McMansions, taking whatever will make it fair. Hey, you are assuming they "earned a living" - how hard do they work vs the guy cleaning the toilets? But they "deserve" the McMansions, and he "deserves" to not be able to afford child care? And if all they think about is just themselves and their family, with no care for anyone else... umm... that selfish bastard label kinda fits! Not saying everyone is like that... but, hey - if that is all they care about!
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Post by sheyd on Jul 16, 2008 15:44:42 GMT -5
Actually, Freckles, Natives came in a large variety of tribes, some of which NEVER fought, some of which fought all the time, most of whom just tried to stay where they were used to the lifestyle afforded by the location. The Ojibwe - the tribe nearest me - were warriors, with a varied past that included large migrations, many wars, and many peaceful contacts as well. You can't paint Natives with one brush, and expect it to fit.
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Post by freckles on Jul 16, 2008 15:47:51 GMT -5
I am 1/8 th Cherokee
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Post by freckles on Jul 16, 2008 15:52:52 GMT -5
My Great Grandmother was Cherokee
Also distantly related to the Outlaw Jessie James
Plus also related to a Confederate Officer in the Civil War
And I would also mention one Relative but it might make someone mad about that one
Of course they have been dead a long time
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