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Post by lqdKaos on Jul 23, 2008 17:17:05 GMT -5
Good grief, Kaos, where do you get this from? I have never ever heard anyone say that the people of Iran are terrorists. It's the regime that consists of terrorists and/or terrorist sympathizers. Who are doing a fantastic job of oppressing their own people. I was inferring it from Freckles' posts: Now, those see like 2 pretty over arching statements to me. You can not possibly nuke a country and not intend to kill the majority of the people. I think its easy to see where I would have mistaken this as saying Iranians are terrorists. Perhaps I am mistaken and misunderstood those comments, but they seem pretty clear to me. I dont deny that the regime is possibly made up of terrorists. I definitely dont deny that the Iranian President has made some pretty over the top threats. I dont like the regime any more than the next. But comments such as those are unnecessary and seem to lump everyone in that country in the same boat....Or at least to the same fate. I am sorry, but Statements like the above, burn my ass. I come from a nationality that was once put into internment camps on US soil. US citizens were treated like criminals during WWII because of attitudes like that. Wives and children of US Soldiers were interned while they served their own country because of people's fears.
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Post by soupnazi on Jul 23, 2008 21:11:00 GMT -5
soup, I will agree with you that many, if not most were brought to Gitmo under circumstances that brought suspicion upon themselves. I will also agree that a good number of them are likely people that should be there. However, many have been held for a number of years and were taken based on very little evidence. There have been numerous cases of people that were proven innocent and are still being held because the US government does not know how to release them after having held them this long. You mention that hostages are taken and held in tortuous conditions. There have been reports of abuse, the pictures of the "detainees" led around in hoods. Maybe these are "security measures" or "legal interogation methods" but I would say that even the methods that are "legal" are fairly close to torture. Sleep deprivation, extreme temperatures, light deprivation, etc. Our interegators may not be beating them or water boarding, but we are treading a very thin line. I know I have seen these reports on places like CNN, Fox (Freck's so called No Spin Zone), BBC, NPR, and a few other sources. I like to get me news from a few places so I dont base my ramblings on crap from one source....I get my crap from many places....but I will admit, its all pretty much crap. Kaos, we see eye to eye on getting our info from various sources...I myself HATE mainstream media and the slant they put on stories, whatever they may be. (Not to get too off subject, but I am just waiting for NBC to show a photoshopped pic of Obama walking on water...) However, I differ from you a bit in the earlier paragraph talking about torture. Humiliation is not torture. It may not be a good feeling for the "detainee" having to go through it, but PUH-FUCKING-LEASE, being "humiliated" is not the same as being hung and burned on a bridge (remember those photos of two of our service members...our media doesn't show them anymore...much like video and photos of 9/11). The things you listed, sleep deprivation, extreme temperatures, even waterboarding, are not lethal (although waterboarding could be if taken too far). Uncomfortable, for sure. But not near the same as "torture" techniques used by enemies (current and past)...systematic execution in front of your peers, burning, fracturing of various limbs, beatings, etc... And I don't feel one bit of sorrow for "detainees" going through the cub scout torture at Gitmo...I still say that they didn't just end up there...there is a reason they find themselves in Cuba in a cell. And if they have to suffer a bit of humiliation...well hell, we could start instituting some of their tactics and see how fast the tune changes. (PS--I hope you recognize this as friendly debate, and nothing personal.)
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Post by JimB on Jul 24, 2008 0:13:33 GMT -5
Jumping in.... However, I differ from you a bit in the earlier paragraph talking about torture. Humiliation is not torture. It may not be a good feeling for the "detainee" having to go through it, but PUH-FUCKING-LEASE, being "humiliated" is not the same as being hung and burned on a bridge (remember those photos of two of our service members...our media doesn't show them anymore...much like video and photos of 9/11). That's right, it's not the same. In fact, culturally speaking, it's worse. You're ignoring (or overlooking) the fact that we're talking about a culture where death is far from the worst consequence possible in warfare. Not to mention the fact that summarily executing prisoners of war without any semblance of due process is contrary to our own cultural values. "Our torture isn't as bad as your torture, therefore ours is ok and yours is not." No, we can't. It's unacceptable for them to do it, and it's unacceptable for us to do it.
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Post by lumpy on Jul 24, 2008 10:27:32 GMT -5
Jumping in.... However, I differ from you a bit in the earlier paragraph talking about torture. Humiliation is not torture. It may not be a good feeling for the "detainee" having to go through it, but PUH-FUCKING-LEASE, being "humiliated" is not the same as being hung and burned on a bridge (remember those photos of two of our service members...our media doesn't show them anymore...much like video and photos of 9/11). That's right, it's not the same. In fact, culturally speaking, it's worse. You're ignoring (or overlooking) the fact that we're talking about a culture where death is far from the worst consequence possible in warfare. Not to mention the fact that summarily executing prisoners of war without any semblance of due process is contrary to our own cultural values. "Our torture isn't as bad as your torture, therefore ours is ok and yours is not." No, we can't. It's unacceptable for them to do it, and it's unacceptable for us to do it. Ever the voice of reason. Agree in full. We are supposed to be better than that.
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Post by soupnazi on Jul 24, 2008 10:55:49 GMT -5
[/quote]No, we can't. It's unacceptable for them to do it, and it's unacceptable for us to do it.
[/quote]
JimB and Lumpy, I do agree with that...but the fact is, whether it is acceptable or not, it is going to continue to be used. Nobody is going to get all touchy feely and stop. It reminds me of the line from Goodfellas (and sorry if i used this in another post)...you don't bring a knife to a gunfight.
My point was that our "torture" methods are not at all heinous when compared to those of who we may be up against.
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Post by lumpy on Jul 24, 2008 12:18:17 GMT -5
No, we can't. It's unacceptable for them to do it, and it's unacceptable for us to do it. JimB and Lumpy, I do agree with that...but the fact is, whether it is acceptable or not, it is going to continue to be used. Nobody is going to get all touchy feely and stop. It reminds me of the line from Goodfellas (and sorry if i used this in another post)...you don't bring a knife to a gunfight. My point was that our "torture" methods are not at all heinous when compared to those of who we may be up against. "Battle not with monsters lest ye become one yourself. And know that as you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you". Or something like that.
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Post by freckles on Jul 24, 2008 12:23:54 GMT -5
I think *Terrorests* should be put in a Cell for the rest of thier life with a Solders Rifle pointed at thier Head 24/7 Wait Thats what we do now
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Post by JimB on Jul 24, 2008 20:40:44 GMT -5
I got what your point is - I just think it's a faulty point. Any obligation on our part to stoop to the level of our enemies is entirely in our own heads. MY point is it would be a far better course of action to raise ourselves above the whole question of torture and give due process to prisoners of war. Perhaps they won't respect our version of due process any more than we respect their methods of interrogation, but at least we stick to our principles that way. What's more, you may be right that torture "is going to happen". So are rape, murder, arson, genocide, and unpaid parking tickets. Doesn't mean we need to participate in or condone it.
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Post by soupnazi on Jul 24, 2008 23:02:50 GMT -5
I got what your point is - I just think it's a faulty point. Any obligation on our part to stoop to the level of our enemies is entirely in our own heads. MY point is it would be a far better course of action to raise ourselves above the whole question of torture and give due process to prisoners of war. Perhaps they won't respect our version of due process any more than we respect their methods of interrogation, but at least we stick to our principles that way. What's more, you may be right that torture "is going to happen". So are rape, murder, arson, genocide, and unpaid parking tickets. Doesn't mean we need to participate in or condone it. JimB, I just don't see it that way, whether my viewpoint is "faulty" or not. In an earlier post, I said that I don't believe that our prisoners, detainees, whatever, deserve the same rights as are afforded to Americans. Due process is a legal course, and a right, of US Citizens. Last I checked, this is the United States of America, not the US of Human Rights. Don't get me wrong when I say that. I certainly believe basic human rights come first. Our detainees are getting food, water, shelter, and clothing. those same detainees throw a cup of shit and piss back at their guards. I still stand by the fact that the detainees are there for a reason, they are not going to provide information just because we ask, and being touchy feely is not going to garner any information from them.
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Post by pennylane on Jul 24, 2008 23:50:10 GMT -5
This entire election is scary.
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Post by lumpy on Jul 25, 2008 1:50:43 GMT -5
Due process is a legal course, and a right, of US Citizens. Last I checked, this is the United States of America, not the US of Human Rights. James T. Kirk would like a word with you... www.youtube.com/watch?v=3b56e0u0EgQ They must apply to everyone, or they mean nothing! DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
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Post by Bobfromacctg on Jul 25, 2008 7:02:43 GMT -5
This entire election is scary. Why? This is far less scary than worrying if GWB is going to take action against Iran. At least with a new president in office, the other countries will be willing to talk to the new guy.
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Post by goods on Jul 25, 2008 8:50:04 GMT -5
Who said we need to invade Iran to protect Israel? If we invade Iran, it would be to protect Iran, cause Israel can't invade or occupy Iran, but they could nuke it out of existence.
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Post by soupnazi on Jul 25, 2008 9:30:00 GMT -5
Due process is a legal course, and a right, of US Citizens. Last I checked, this is the United States of America, not the US of Human Rights. James T. Kirk would like a word with you... www.youtube.com/watch?v=3b56e0u0EgQ They must apply to everyone, or they mean nothing! DO YOU UNDERSTAND? Nice Star Trek reference! I had forgotten how truly cheesy Captain Kirk is! We the people... OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
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Post by lumpy on Jul 25, 2008 9:52:07 GMT -5
Who said we need to invade Iran to protect Israel? If we invade Iran, it would be to protect Iran, cause Israel can't invade or occupy Iran, but they could nuke it out of existence. How about we let Iran and Israel settle that for themselves.
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