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Post by jules on Aug 19, 2008 19:52:24 GMT -5
Yeah, um, just to clarify I wasn't talking about little white lies. In my ex's case, it was stuff like "Yes, I want to be a parent. Yes, I plan to get a full-time job. I didn't get into the program because the administration screwed up my paperwork (nothing to do with the classes he failed and neglected to mention)." Stuff like that I would have liked honesty about. In general, I meant more about being honest regarding one's motives and intentions. To oneself as well as to others.
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Post by redskyatnight on Aug 19, 2008 21:09:32 GMT -5
In general, I meant more about being honest regarding one's motives and intentions. To oneself as well as to others. I think that nails honesty on the head.
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Post by JimB on Aug 20, 2008 8:26:25 GMT -5
OK, but motives and intentions can be somewhat pliable, especially in the context of a committed long term relationship. We all make compromises, and speaking from personal experience, the inspiration of a good partner can cause you to get carried away with promises.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt you'd be interested in someone devoid of ambition. Everybody with any kind of ambition sets goals for himself, and one of the best ways to reach a goal is to tell as many people about it as you can. So naturally, if someone close to you has a personal goal, you can expect to hear about it.
It seems to me that where you've been burned in the past isn't motives and intentions as much as lack of follow-through and making excuses for past failures. It's all very well for someone to declare an intention, but they lose credibility when they don't follow up with action.
In short, I think we're talking more about integrity and commitment than honesty. Unfortunately, the only way you can really learn about integrity and commitment is over a longer period of time. In the context of dating, you just have to follow your gut instinct.
Again, all this is in the interest of redefining your #1 standard. They're your standards, of course - not mine - but I could go along with 1. Integrity 2. Golden Rule 3. Self-respect as very reasonable standards. And if you look closely, you can see how those three standards interconnect with one another....
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Post by jules on Aug 20, 2008 9:07:09 GMT -5
Dude, seriously? When did honesty become a dirty word? lack of follow-through and making excuses for past failures. It's all very well for someone to declare an intention, but they lose credibility when they don't follow up with action. Yes. It makes them a liar, in essence. Again, all this is in the interest of redefining your #1 standard. They're your standards, of course - not mine - but I could go along with 1. Integrity 2. Golden Rule 3. Self-respect as very reasonable standards. And if you look closely, you can see how those three standards interconnect with one another..... Um, yeah, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to see how they interconnect. You don't need to look that closely -- just a few functioning brain cells ought to do it. I really don't want to "redefine" my standards. I want honesty. I want someone who says what he means. Who can admit when he fucks up. Who can talk about when he changes his mind or plans. Who can man up instead of being a scared little boy afraid of my reaction. Who gives me enough credit to tell me how it is rather than placating me. That I can respect a lot more than "yes men" who just tell you bs they think you want to hear. That is what makes me know that I'm respected. If you ask me, integrity has more to do with self-respect. Because how can one respect himself if he lacks integrity? (Unless he's a sociopath. )
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Post by kittenhart on Aug 20, 2008 9:49:35 GMT -5
I want someone who says what he means. Who can admit when he fucks up. Who can talk about when he changes his mind or plans. Who can man up instead of being a scared little boy afraid of my reaction. Who gives me enough credit to tell me how it is rather than placating me. Jules, you know that I (sadly) really do hear you on this....you know my story and that my ex was similar to yours this way, he told so many lies to himself that he didn't know what to believe anymore....but I think more than honesty what you're actually looking for is someone with courage, real courage to be committed to following through....and that is something separate again from honesty. Not that I think honesty is a "bad word"....and not that I'm afraid to use it.
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Post by JimB on Aug 20, 2008 9:52:32 GMT -5
Dude, seriously? When did honesty become a dirty word? Not dirty - just slippery. Ask 100 different people what true honesty means (especially in the context of a relationship), and you'll get 100 different answers. Seems like you're firm in your own definition of honesty, but that doesn't make it a good way to define your standard. IMO, standards aren't worth much if you can't communicate them to the people to whom you're holding them. (And it's just a word anyway - you don't need to cling to it so hard.) Besides, as you get further into your personal definition of "honesty", I see other things. Integrity, openness, and commitment, as I mentioned. Confidence and self-esteem. Humility. Ability and desire to communicate. So I will risk being flamed and stand by my assertion that honesty isn't what you really want. "Honesty" is just a mode of communication - the really important stuff lies underneath it. Sorry if it seems like I'm nit-picking, but I take standards very seriously. The higher your standards, the better-defined they need to be - otherwise, you'll find yourself (and others) questioning them.
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Post by lumpy on Aug 20, 2008 10:38:35 GMT -5
Just to clarify... the "too high" standards I'm questioning are basically: 1.) Be honest. Always. 2.) Treat others as you'd want to be treated. 3.) Respect yourself and others in your life. That's about it. Is that too much in this world? I like 2 and 3. 1 is pretty damn rare. I think it's something to strive for, but I don't think many people actually achieve it.
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Post by jules on Aug 20, 2008 11:14:05 GMT -5
Ok, sorry, I'm going to belabor this point and be nitpicky right back: _____________________________ hon·es·ty –noun, plural -ties. 1. the quality or fact of being honest; uprightness and fairness. 2. truthfulness, sincerity, or frankness. 3. freedom from deceit or fraud. Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006. ______________________________ hon·es·ty n. pl. hon·es·ties
1. The quality or condition of being honest; integrity. 2. Truthfulness; sincerity: in all honesty. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company. _______________________________ honesty
c.1330, from O.Fr. honesté, from L. honestatem (nom. honestas) "honor, honesty," from honestus (see honest). In Eng., the word originally had more to do with honor than honest. Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper ________________________________ Honesty
Hon"es*ty\, n. [OE. honeste, oneste, honor, OF. honest['e], onest['e] (cf. F. honn[^e]tet['e]), L. honestas. See Honest, a.] 1. Honor; honorableness; dignity; propriety; suitableness; decency. [Obs.] --Chaucer. 2. The quality or state of being honest; probity; fairness and straightforwardness of conduct, speech, etc.; integrity; sincerity; truthfulness; freedom from fraud or guile. Syn: Integrity; probity; uprightness; trustiness; faithfulness; honor; justice; equity; fairness; candor; plain-dealing; veracity; sincerity. Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc. ___________________________________
I'm not seeing the apparent confusion. (I did leave out the obsolete definition of honesty as chastity since, well, it is obsolete, and also the definition regarding the plant since I think it's pretty clear we're not talking about botany.
How is this such a difficult concept to grasp? Or is the whole concept of honesty in general obsolete?
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Post by lumpy on Aug 20, 2008 11:20:25 GMT -5
How is this such a difficult concept to grasp? Or is the whole concept of honesty in general obsolete? Not obsolete, but rare. I don't think it's something you're likely to find at the start of a casual relationship either. It's something that is earned over time. Your question was (more or less) is this asking for too much? Right out of the box at the beginning of a relationship? Yes, I'd say your expectation is too great.
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Post by jules on Aug 20, 2008 11:36:24 GMT -5
Thanks for telling it to me straight, Lumpy. Good to know. Now excuse me while I try to go find a convent who not only allows but encourages drinking and smoking, the use of bobs, and excessive shoe shopping.
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Post by lumpy on Aug 20, 2008 11:46:39 GMT -5
Thanks for telling it to me straight, Lumpy. Good to know. Now excuse me while I try to go find a convent who not only allows but encourages drinking and smoking, the use of bobs, and excessive shoe shopping. Just wanted to add that I understand your frustration. Your ex was wrong. When you've come that far in a relationship (marriage) you should be able to communicate your feelings honestly. I just think that if you try to expect that level of honesty early on in a relationship, you're likely to be disappointed.
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super
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Post by super on Aug 20, 2008 12:31:11 GMT -5
Dude, seriously? When did honesty become a dirty word? I want someone who says what he means. Who can admit when he fucks up. Who can talk about when he changes his mind or plans. Who can man up instead of being a scared little boy afraid of my reaction. Who gives me enough credit to tell me how it is rather than placating me. I third this! If my ex hadn't been such a liar, we could have sorted things out years ago. If he hadn't brushed me off or lied every time I brought up things like career, travel, kids, moving etc. and told me what he thought would make me happy, I could have avoided trying to make it work with someone that truly had dreams that were just being incompatible with mine. If he had told me when he proposed that he was hoping I would change, I could have set him straight. I still can't quite believe I took him at his word all those years. I am still dealing with the fact that I loved him enough to severely compromise what I wanted out of life, and that he felt it was okay to just step out when he realized it would involve compromise on his part. Honesty about the important things, an absolute must, at the start and all the way through. I am putting this into practice in my new relationships.
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Post by gdgross on Aug 20, 2008 12:43:31 GMT -5
Ok Jules, I can agree with that.
And yes, it's rare, sadly. But no, I don't think it's too much to ask. Unfortunately, you don't really know how honest a person is about the big things until you are well into "relationship" status. So you make your best guess at the beginning and hope it's true at the end.
I think the girl I've just started seeing is pretty good in that department, but honestly I won't know for a while, until I get to know her better.
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super
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Post by super on Aug 20, 2008 14:13:57 GMT -5
I think part of the initial dating always includes a bit of lying. You might pretend you like, or at least don't hate his favourite shirt at the start. Later, you can take him shopping and fix the problem
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Post by lqdKaos on Aug 20, 2008 15:39:47 GMT -5
I think part of the initial dating always includes a bit of lying. You might pretend you like, or at least don't hate his favourite shirt at the start. Later, you can take him shopping and fix the problem See this is one of the things that my Ex did that made me post about the "ever changing" standards. Dont pretend you like my favorite shirt only to tell me later that you cant stand it or try to get me to buy new ones. Its my shirt, I like it, and I thought you liked it or at least tolerated it.... To me if you try to change my shirt today, and I go along with it, tomorrow you try to change my hair cut, and I go along with it, the next day you tell me that I cant go kayaking as much, and I go along with it...It becomes difficult for me to live up to the standards. Because I dont know what they are from day to day / week to week. I am constantly changing something because what I was doing did not live up to a standard I did not know existed. And it all started because you did not state up front that my shirt was not up to standard...Yesterday, you just wanted me to change my shirt. The shirt is just a metaphor for any other standard.
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