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Post by Phyxius on Jan 24, 2008 18:51:19 GMT -5
Can anyone explain the difference between Islamic terrorists and those fanatical Christians who blow up abortion clinics?
How about between Islamic terrorists and the Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland?
Anyone?
Any idiot can kill in the name of God, and anyone who does is an absolute idiot.
Idiocy is independent of religion. Don't single out one group - there's more than enough blood on EVERYONE'S hands...
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Post by blazinheart on Jan 24, 2008 19:06:05 GMT -5
Can anyone explain the difference between Islamic terrorists and those fanatical Christians who blow up abortion clinics? How about between Islamic terrorists and the Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland? Phyxius, I don't know if you've read through the entire thread or not, but it seems as though you've missed the point. The point isn't that only one religion has followers that kill in it's name. The point is that there is only one religion that currently endorses, through it's leadership, brutal oppression resulting in gross human rights abuses as well as killing. You're doing the same thing that phoenixx is doing. You're detracting from the point. Nobody is saying that muslims are the only ones that kill in the name of their religion. I'm only saying that in no other religion is brutality endorsed and provided the way it is in Islam through Sharia law and Jihad. Seriously, when's the last time anybody blew up an abortion clinic? And did you see any of Christianity's well known leaders endorsing the bombing? Of course not. Enough with the ridiculous comparisons that totally miss the point.
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Post by freckles on Jan 24, 2008 19:27:47 GMT -5
I think the Good Muslims are so Scared of the Bad ones They say Nothing Or Cheer because if they dont , they will be Killed too
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Post by Phoenixx on Jan 24, 2008 19:31:09 GMT -5
Blazing, it seems you have missed the point yourself that I was making. So I'll do it again. Just for you. Ready? Sharia Law has nothing to do with endorsing brutal oppression. I'll ask again, have you ever read a Quran? Can you answer the questions I posted in my earlier post? Do you know anything about the religion itself?
It seems soome people just like to jump on the bandwagon of propoganda.
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Post by blazinheart on Jan 24, 2008 19:36:07 GMT -5
Ready? Sharia Law has nothing to do with endorsing brutal oppression. Wrong. One of the hallmark tenets of Sharia law is the complete intolerance for anyone who talks badly of Muhammed. Talking negatively about muhammed is, under Sharia law, punishable by death. As are many other behaviors that are deemed to be against islam. I don't about you, but to me, that's brutal oppression. Care to keep going phoenixx?
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Post by Phoenixx on Jan 24, 2008 20:32:44 GMT -5
I'll explain it even simpler. Sharia Law is the law laid out within the religion. Fiqh law is the interpretation of that, allowed to change with time and region. Once upon a time heads rolled over against speaking out against Christ. Heads rolled over being anti-roman too. Islam does not endorse murder. Above all it is written in the Quran that it is a peaceful greeting. Where are you getting your sources from?
Let me point something else out. And DO NOT take this as me speaking against Christianity, because I AM NOT.
The Hamitic theory was taken as fact for a long time (some people still believe it) and was used as a justification for slavery. Would you call that brutality?Second, did you know stoning is pointed out in the Old Testatement as well? For touching Mount Sinai? in Exodus 19:13? For a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night, Deuteronomy 22:13-21 ? Then for an engaged woman having sex with a man other than her fiance Deuteronomy 22:23-24?
How can a woman be stoned to death for not being a virgin on her wedding night, but from third example I posted we can infer that it is still okay for her to have sex with her fiance? See the innacuracies? Things may be written that are illogical, in ANY religion. So we must take it into context and see where we are in life. There were no jails in that time so I appreciate that that was the way to deal with things. However, we must change with time and region. Hence Fiqh Law comes into play in terms of Islam.
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Post by lumpy on Jan 24, 2008 20:48:27 GMT -5
[Wrong. One of the hallmark tenets of Sharia law is the complete intolerance for anyone who talks badly of Muhammed. Talking negatively about muhammed is, under Sharia law, punishable by death. Talkin' bad bout Muhammad is punishable by Muhammad. You don't want none, you don't want none!
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Post by Saucy on Jan 24, 2008 21:21:06 GMT -5
hahahah good one lumps
high five up top!! *smack*
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Post by blazinheart on Jan 24, 2008 22:53:19 GMT -5
I'll explain it even simpler. Sharia Law is the law laid out within the religion. Fiqh law is the interpretation of that, allowed to change with time and region. Once upon a time heads rolled over against speaking out against Christ. Heads rolled over being anti-roman too. Islam does not endorse murder. Above all it is written in the Quran that it is a peaceful greeting. Where are you getting your sources from? Murder is killing someone because they speak out against your religion. That is murder. And Sharia law specifically holds that speaking against islam or muhammed is punishable by death. Also, apostasy is punishable by death. Sharia law does not provide freedom of religion or expression. Let me give you an example. If I go to Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Sudan, Libya, Algeria, Iran, Jordan, or basically any country in the Middle east or North Africa and someone hears me speaking against Islam or Muhammed, I will be jailed and tried and there's a very good chance I will stoned to death. If you've travelled to any of these countries, as I have, you would know this. Foreigners, westerners are warned of the rules of these countries before they enter. And these oppresive laws are the main reason people don't generally travel to these countries. Free thinking individuals don't want to be strung up for accidently speaking their mind. Phoenixx, were do you live? I ask because it doesn't seem that you really know what goes on in muslim countries that impose Sharia law.
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Post by ionysis on Jan 25, 2008 2:31:27 GMT -5
Thanks Freckles for considerately modifying the title of this thread and your first post.
Thanks Blazin for explaining your thought processes.
For me, in this place for opinions, my opinion is that the issues we are dealing with stem more from cultural and social modes of thought rather than the actual religion of Islam itself.
I know many people, IRL, whose opinion I respect who think that the culture is led by the religion rather than the other way round.
I'm happy to agree to disagree.
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Post by Phoenixx on Jan 25, 2008 6:05:49 GMT -5
It seems Blazing that no matter what I say you cannot understand the fact that there is a difference between actual Sharia Law and what is portrayed as Sharia Law. As someone who has read the Quran and read widely around the subject, I can tell the differences. Unfortunately, with so much rubbish out there it is difficult for those who do not understand the religion (as written, not as acted out) and for those who do not do the research. Everytime I hear something someone says "oh thats part of Sharia Law" even if they are a scholar, I go right back to the Quran and other material and do some research. Perhaps it would be better if everyone checked wether things were true before following them/thinking they are part of Islam.
One final time. Just because you would be stoned to death in those countries does not mean they are following actual Sharia Law. Just because its a "Muslim" country does not mean it is following Muslim rules as laid out. Do you understand what I am saying? Sharia Law does not state to stone someone to death for speaking against anyone. Yes there is freedom of religion in Sharia Law. The Quran recognises Christianity and Judaism as valid religions. It urges Muslims not to speak out against them. It urges Muslims not to place themselves above other religions. It states in the second chapter clearly that everyone who follows a righteous path (and several religions are named) "shall have their reward with the Lord". Under Sharia Law there is a freedom of worshipping your own religion because Muslims are strictly forbidden to convert anyone. It MUST be a personal choice. Yeah I know personally plenty of people who put pressures on their spouses to convert, but that doesn't mean its right.
Another example. People say "oh its all about an eye for an eye in the Quran" (which by the way was a term strongly associated with Christianity at some point), but lets take stealing. This is forbidden and is punishable by cutting off the right hand. Read that in the Quran and anyone who doesnt know the rules will freak out. BUT, here are the things that must be proven before that can actually be carried out. 1)The thief must be adult and sane. 2)There must have been criminal intent to take private (not common) property. 3)the theft must not have been the product of hunger, necessity, or duress. 4)the goods stolen must: be over a minimum value, not haraam (forbidden), and not owned by the thief's family. 5)Goods must have been taken from custody (i.e. not in a public place). 6)There must be reliable witnesses. 7)The punishment is not imposed if the thief repents.
With all those rules, it means pretty much that the cutting off hands would never actually happen. Do people actually know the rules? No, not really. I myself did not know the rules until I did the research at a young age, but unfortunately many people take what they are TOLD, not what they read themselves. Is that because of Islam? No, because Islam strongly encourages knowledge. It even strongly encourages questioning everything (even Islam itself) and using your mind above all. It is adamantly against following scholars if personally you dont agree. Yes, there is oppression but it is NOT due to Islam.
Again, another example of something else which has been perverted. In certain countries it says that for a woman to prove rape, she must have four male witnesses to her rape. This doesnt actually say in the Quran. This is a blatant perversion, but people take it as Sharia Law. The actual law of four eye wtinesses stands on adultery. If a woman is to be proven to be ADULTEROUS the accusers must prove with four eye witnesses that she had adulterous relations with a man other than her husband. This is to stop obviously a jilted husband trying to lie, its to stop gossip, etc, etc. Rape is a completely different thing and requires no witnesses (obv).
In the chapter dealing with women ("Al Nisa") it clearly states that a woman is entitled to her own job, her own education, her own space, her own time, her own everything. A woman MUST NOT be given to a man she doesn't want. I'm at work so I cant access the exact verses but I have read it myself, and it specifically states that a woman must NOT be made to marry someone she does not want. Does that sound like oppression to you? No. Is that what happens? Yes. Does that mean Islam itself is in the wrong? No. So is there perversion? Yup.
The Prophet himself never forced anyone to convert. For anyone who wished it, obv it was fine, but for anyone who did not want it they could worship their own religion. There were members of his family (I believe it may have been his cousin who was married to a non-muslim man and they were married for twenty years) who were non-muslim and were obviously not killed. The Prophet's first wife was his BOSS. She financed his travels to spread the word of Islam. How does that sound like opresson of women to you?
Let me explain something else. Jihad is the act of Holy war based on the reasoning that Muslims are being persecuted all over the world for being Muslim and can only take place if there is COMPLETE CONSENSUS, so if EVERY SINGLE Muslim agrees and must only be a FINAL measure after all else has failed. Trust me, whoever is saying this is Holy War is completely and utterly bonkers, because Muslims are not being persecuted for being Muslim (well, they are in some places) and not every single Muslim agrees.
Then there are Hadith's, which are statements written by scholars based on the lives of the Prophet and the lives of the scholars at the time who wrote his teachings. This does not mean they are complete Law. In fact if a Hadith goes against what is written in the Quran, you can forget it. Yet there are Hadith's that say that you should beat your wife. It doesn't say that in the Quran. Yet plenty of people who think that its perfectly okay within Islam to beat your wife, when its not.
In Islam there are different levels of what you can and cannot do: Obligatory, Meritorious, Permissible, Reprehensible & Forbidden. The only things Forbidden are the BIG things and those are the only ones punishable. Like Murder, stealing, adultery, etc etc. But each thing must be proven according to the rules laid out.
So there. Understand the differences between the many different rules, Blazing, before painting Islam with the broad strokes of something portrayed as Sharia when its actually not. I've explained some of the more insane things going around in terms of actual Sharia Law. It is not what somene says, it is what is written and used within the different rules of scholarly interpretation, logic, agreement and different rules depending on different times, different regions. It is a HUGE HUGE system that has so many different parts.
I live in England. But I have lived in Yemen and in Saudi Arabia and I have family there I visit all the time. I was there just last year. So I know what goes on in so-called "Muslim" countries. But you fail to understand that although I agree this atrocities are going on, it does not mean they are part of the actual Islam.
But - thank you for explaining your thought processes. I'm sure they are due to your experiences within some of the countries you've been in. But are they due to the actual written rules?
Thanks also Freckles for changing the titile post. I will follow Ionysis' example and agree to disagree.
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Post by freckles on Jan 25, 2008 13:15:20 GMT -5
I can see that those People that are Bad are different.
What does it say about what should happen to the Bad Leaders
Like: I saw a Video on the News
That they captured
Of a Religious Leader that took His Pistol and Shot a Woman wearing a Burka in the head because She wore Lipstick and someone accused her of that.
I was thinking, Shooting a lady in the Head because she wore Lipstick is what a Follower of Evil would do. (And how could they even see if she had on lipstick under a Burka, or even know if they had the right woman ?)
What does the Koran say about a Religious Leader that does that ?
And then after shooting Her in the Head he goes and gives a Talk at the Mosk
Does that not Defile the Mosk ?
Does that not Defile the Koran ?
Does that not make that Man that did that at War with God ? And the Angels ?
And on the Side of Evil and Demons and Hell ?
What should the Followers of Islam do to that Muslim Religious Leader ?
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Post by lqdKaos on Jan 25, 2008 17:49:24 GMT -5
I can see that those People that are Bad are different. What does it say about what should happen to the Bad Leaders Like: I saw a Video on the News That they captured Of a Religious Leader that took His Pistol and Shot a Woman wearing a Burka in the head because She wore Lipstick and someone accused her of that. I was thinking, Shooting a lady in the Head because she wore Lipstick is what a Follower of Evil would do. (And how could they even see if she had on lipstick under a Burka, or even know if they had the right woman ?) What does the Koran say about a Religious Leader that does that ? And then after shooting Her in the Head he goes and gives a Talk at the Mosk Does that not Defile the Mosk ? Does that not Defile the Koran ? Does that not make that Man that did that at War with God ? And the Angels ? And on the Side of Evil and Demons and Hell ? What should the Followers of Islam do to that Muslim Religious Leader ? Just going to throw this out there Freck, to stir the pot. I read and saw on the news that some Catholic Priest molested a bunch of young boys....The church has "reprimanded" him and paid off the families I read where a Mormon leader contributed to the rape of numerous teenage girls by "giving" them to other church men as wives and brainwashing the girls into believing that if they did not they would be punished. Does that not defile the Bible? Does that not defile the Church? Does that not make that Man that did that at War with God ? And the Angels ? And on the Side of Evil and Demons and Hell ? What should the Followers of Christianity do to that Christian / Catholic Religious Leader ?
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Post by lumpy on Jan 25, 2008 18:17:31 GMT -5
Just going to throw this out there Freck, to stir the pot. I read and saw on the news that some Catholic Priest molested a bunch of young boys....The church has "reprimanded" him and paid off the families I read where a Mormon leader contributed to the rape of numerous teenage girls by "giving" them to other church men as wives and brainwashing the girls into believing that if they did not they would be punished. Does that not defile the Bible? Does that not defile the Church? Does that not make that Man that did that at War with God ? And the Angels ? And on the Side of Evil and Demons and Hell ? What should the Followers of Christianity do to that Christian / Catholic Religious Leader ? Fighting Freck with Freck. Interesting strategm.
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Post by freckles on Jan 25, 2008 18:45:24 GMT -5
I can see that those People that are Bad are different. What does it say about what should happen to the Bad Leaders Like: I saw a Video on the News That they captured Of a Religious Leader that took His Pistol and Shot a Woman wearing a Burka in the head because She wore Lipstick and someone accused her of that. I was thinking, Shooting a lady in the Head because she wore Lipstick is what a Follower of Evil would do. (And how could they even see if she had on lipstick under a Burka, or even know if they had the right woman ?) What does the Koran say about a Religious Leader that does that ? And then after shooting Her in the Head he goes and gives a Talk at the Mosk Does that not Defile the Mosk ? Does that not Defile the Koran ? Does that not make that Man that did that at War with God ? And the Angels ? And on the Side of Evil and Demons and Hell ? What should the Followers of Islam do to that Muslim Religious Leader ? Just going to throw this out there Freck, to stir the pot. I read and saw on the news that some Catholic Priest molested a bunch of young boys....The church has "reprimanded" him and paid off the families I read where a Mormon leader contributed to the rape of numerous teenage girls by "giving" them to other church men as wives and brainwashing the girls into believing that if they did not they would be punished. Does that not defile the Bible? Does that not defile the Church? Does that not make that Man that did that at War with God ? And the Angels ? And on the Side of Evil and Demons and Hell ? What should the Followers of Christianity do to that Christian / Catholic Religious Leader ? We are doing something He is in Jail
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