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Post by jules on Nov 4, 2008 14:11:05 GMT -5
And any pet owner who allows his or her pet to be bitten and miserable has no business being a pet owner in the first place. But anyone who deals with the issue by throwing over their human partner has no business being in a relationship, though. It isn't good to have a pet miserable - but you and your partner work out what is best for everyone, not a blanket statement that you would get rid of the human and their misbehaving pet forever. Plus - pets do spat a bit sometimes as part of the normal territorial way of being. You have to give the pets a real chance to get to know each other and adjust to a new situation before you can assume they would be "bitten and miserable". Dogs are NOT humans. They don't react the same, and their actions don't always have the same meanings attributable. You also have to give your human partner the benefit of the doubt and work WITH them to correct problems, not state if there is a problem the pet wins. Frankly- pets aren't around a large percentage of our life. If you have an elderly pet, I see no problem with not changing their surroundings until they pass as a solution, too - but then again, my old cat has new life now that he has adjusted to the kittens and he plays like a kitten with the ones he was hissing at a few months ago. Give Riven a chance - and give a chance to the other animals out there too. Sometimes it just takes TIME. Shey. Not for nothing, but this issue is bigger than being just about a darn dog. It's about purposely disrespecting your partner's wishes regarding one's lifestyle AFTER they have been made perfectly clear from the get-go. (That would be a HUGE problem for me since I would see that as a major sign of disrespect for me as a person -- as if my wishes don't matter.) It's about using a lame excuse to run away like a child, rather than talking things out like an adult (which is another HUGE problem.) |
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Post by lumpy on Nov 4, 2008 14:42:42 GMT -5
The issue was that I saw ANY scenario in which we might have to break up. This is what was too much for her. It didn't matter if it were a small chance it was that I accepted that it could happen. She said she only wanted to be with a partner that saw absolutely no chance of ever breaking up. This seemed a bit odd to me since she had broken up with me before and since she's had other relationships that are now over. I think you hit on a key point that supercedes the Riven issue. This attitude is beyond "a bit odd". She must realize that there are no guarantees in any relationship. That level of insecurity is going to be a tough hurdle to overcome in the longterm. Have you heard anything from her since the blow-up? |
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Post by yellowjacket on Nov 4, 2008 14:44:00 GMT -5
I'm sorry, yes, I WOULD continue the relationship. There are ways around a biting animal But once you've found a way around the biting animal then you aren't having to address the question anymore. If the situation can be fixed then we're good. I assumed that we'd have found a way one way or the other but what if we couldn't? If you've tried everything and he's still miserable, what then? In my opinion, the more you talk about it and plan for it the better shape you are in. If I'd known it would have meant a breakup I wouldn't have raised the subject. I would have just taken it as it went. I don't think any rational person would have thought talking about it would have meant breaking up. It IS unrealistic to assume you could never break up - but you did essentially threaten a break up over what may or may not happen. I did bring up a breakup. You're right. I shouldn't have. I should have approached it from the perspective of "this could be a problem, let's solve it now" without talking about what it could progress to in the worst case. When I e-mailed her last Monday to ask if we could talk on the phone after her son went to bed, I specifically stated I was wrong to look at things negatively. I'll take full responsibility for not framing it in the best way. As Lumpy said, it's about saving a relationship not winning an argument. But I don't get to do that now. As many have pointed out, that's the point of being with a partner who works with you and continues to communicate. Then you can get through such things. If we were still together at this point I'd be fine with saying "we'll find a way to make the situation work, let's go find Q a dog." Were you maybe a bit mad because she was getting the dog and this is the way you were showing he was more important to kind of hurt her back? It definitely wasn't that. I was motivated much more by fear. I thought everything was great between us and now something was happening that endangered us. I hoped it wouldn't happen. I wanted to at least bring it up since that's all I could do. I never dreamed it would turn into this. |
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Post by lumpy on Nov 4, 2008 15:00:06 GMT -5
If we were still together at this point I'd be fine with saying "we'll find a way to make the situation work, let's go find Q a dog." I'm guessing you expressing that to her would go a long way towards breaking down the shield she's throwing up. I think it might be worth a shot. |
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Post by wizer on Nov 4, 2008 15:00:18 GMT -5
If I'd known it would have meant a breakup I wouldn't have raised the subject. I would have just taken it as it went. I don't think any rational person would have thought talking about it would have meant breaking up. I did bring up a breakup. You're right. I shouldn't have. I should have approached it from the perspective of "this could be a problem, let's solve it now" without talking about what it could progress to in the worst case. When I e-mailed her last Monday to ask if we could talk on the phone after her son went to bed, I specifically stated I was wrong to look at things negatively. I'll take full responsibility for not framing it in the best way. As Lumpy said, it's about saving a relationship not winning an argument. But I don't get to do that now. You arent listening to anything anyone said on this thread. Maybe THATS the problem in your relationship. You don't listen. It's not about what you said or how you said it, it's not about the dog or about "bringing up a breakup". She was looking for a reason to leave and you gave it to her. If it wasn't that it would have been a fight over what ornament goes on top of the tree or something. It was already over. Deal with it and move on, and stop beating yourself up. And start listening to people. |
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Post by yellowjacket on Nov 4, 2008 15:16:11 GMT -5
Have you heard anything from her since the blow-up? I have not and this leads into another point with which I'm really struggling. I can't believe how hard-hearted she is being in all of this. There is a ton of background on this one so please stay with me.  I wanted something special for her for her birthday of this year. She had mentioned before how guys never really did anything special. They spent money but never anything really thoughtful. It was clear talking to her very early on about her past that what she really missed was true intimacy and depth of feeling. I once asked her if her ex-husband (13 years) or her ex-boyfriend (4 years) after him really knew her. After I asked she just started crying. It hurt her that they didn't. We did not have that problem. I knew her completely, or so I thought, and we agreed that whatever it is we talk about it. We started out as a short-term couple because of her having a son. We thought we'd enjoy spending time together and it would have to end one day. I thought she was a party girl and I don't fit well with those. As I got to know her better I saw that we did have long-term potential. So for her birthday I started writing her a long letter. It was part love letter and part a record of what we're doing. It was hand-written because I thought that was more personal. I started this in mid/late April, I think, which was about two/three weeks after we'd started dating. I explained all my thoughts and so me falling in love with her was all right there for her to read. Her birthday is in September. She broke up with me in June. I gave her the letter because I didn't want to see it wasted and because the breakup was very amicable (though also had been done via e-mail). It was 70+ pages at the time. I suspect the letter was part of why she came back the next morning (in e-mail). She spent that day organizing her thoughts and we talked it out that evening. She had a few pages she had written out. One part of it referred to the letter as obsessive. That really hurt to read. I knew already that a letter like that was the gift she wanted more than anything else in the world, even though she hadn't told me. She desperately lacked that kind of attention/affection in her past relationships. She later told me she wrote in her journal that she couldn't believe she had written that about it being obsessive. It shows her state of mind in tense situations, though. I told her that I didn't mean to hurt her but I didn't think I could continue the letter through to her birthday (in September). I explained I was hurt that she stopped fighting for us and wouldn't keep talking and keep trying. She said she understood and would feel the same in my position. She said she hopes I'll change my mind because missing out on the pages that I won't write is the worst punishment she can imagine. She said please think of something else to punish me instead. She explained this was the gift she wanted more than anything else, as I'd guessed. She said whenever guys asked her what she wanted she always said, "love letters, even if it's on a post-it note." She said they never came. I did explain it was not about punishing or anything of that nature. She understood. From that day on, every morning she wasn't with me she wrote me a hand-written letter in the mail. She told me how much she loved me and how hard she would work and never quit again. She made this point over and over. She kept these up, one a day except the weekends we were together, for about three weeks. That was about 15-17 letters in all. They stopped once we left for a trip to Mexico together. I was so touched by them that I re-started her birthday letter. I started typing instead of writing because of problems with my hand. I decided about a month later to give it to her for her birthday next year and was going to keep doing it for over a year. I thought that would mean more and would be completely unexpected where she might be expecting it for this year and so it wouldn't be as valuable. Plus she already had the other pages coming for this year since she hadn't read all of it that night of the breakup. Last Monday night I e-mailed to ask if she'd be willing to talk. I said maybe it was a misunderstanding and she didn't realize how much I loved her. I said love was hard to find and true love was worth fighting for. I said we had that and can again if we choose to. Her reply was, "This is not just a misunderstanding. This is not something to be worked through. I have things to say only for the sake of making my peace with this. It is not yet time." After I read that I realized we'd never be together again. I sent her the rest of the letter because again I didn't want it wasted. It's about 70 pages in the default Word font. I can't help but wonder. What kind of person doesn't at least e-mail back and say 'thank you for sending this'? No matter how hurt I felt by someone I would have responded to that and thanked them for it. It's probably a blessing in disguise. How far was I going to get with someone whose heart is this hard? So now I have it hanging over my head that she'll contact me at some point to make her peace with it, which I assume means telling me that I'm awful, etc. I would like to get that time past because waiting for it is affecting my ability to move on. I know I could just shut her out completely and not have to go through it but that's not the right thing to do. |
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Post by yellowjacket on Nov 4, 2008 15:32:55 GMT -5
If we were still together at this point I'd be fine with saying "we'll find a way to make the situation work, let's go find Q a dog." I'm guessing you expressing that to her would go a long way towards breaking down the shield she's throwing up. I think it might be worth a shot. If she seemed more open to talking I would. But she has made it clear she doesn't want to communicate. I had e-mailed the day after the breakup and asked, "how are you doing?" She responded that she was fine and preferred that I not contact her for a while. I sent an e-mail right after that saying I wanted to end on a positive note and mentioned some of the wonderful things we'd shared. She didn't respond. I didn't know how long "a while" meant for not contacting her so I tried again the next Monday. That was the one where I asked if she wanted to talk on the phone (mentioned in my other post). Her reply from that one was cold so at this point I think further communication from me is just going against her wishes. At some point I have to respect that she wants to be left alone, no matter how important what I think I might have to say is. |
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Post by sheyd on Nov 4, 2008 15:34:50 GMT -5
I assumed that we'd have found a way one way or the other but what if we couldn't? If you've tried everything and he's still miserable, what then? Yes, what then? Who DO you choose? Who would SHE choose? I suspect as much as most people love their pets there are few who would keep an animal that couldn't be trained (although most can be trained - my biting beagle doesn't bite anymore - although we had to treat him like a dog instead of family member to correct the problem.) Which is one issue - how you rank pets vs. humans. I don't have a problem with someone ranking a pet high - but higher than a spouse would have me wondering. You care for a pet like a child, you definitely don't leave them miserable - but you really shouldn't be jumping to get rid of the person that introduced the pet that makes him miserable. Perhaps an ultimatum of they would have to get rid of a biting pet might be a better one? Assuming the bite is really a sign of character and not just an adjustment period? What is concerning to me is that in the other interactions you have allowed Riven, you didn't give him or the other pets enough time to adjust - I want to make sure you give him that chance. With or without this girl, letting people into your life probably means letting them into his - and maybe other pets too. I want to make sure you really look at what is healthy for both of you - and that includes allowing him some adjustment time. In my opinion, the more you talk about it and plan for it the better shape you are in. Talking about contingencies if things go bad with the new pet is one thing, jumping right to not being able to see the other person might be a bit extreme as you said it could have been framed better - but again, as I stated before - you should be ALLOWED to have those moments, and trust that she will work through them with you. This is a second and somewhat separate issue. Regardless of the Riven issue - her response simply won't support a long-term relationship. If I'd known it would have meant a breakup I wouldn't have raised the subject. This concerns me - and brings me back to that point about being so in love not being about working through the tough stuff. You SHOULD be able to raise the subject - you should be allowed to say "wrong" things - you should be able to, because both of you should be committed enough to each other to talk it through. You can't hide your fears and be perfect all the time. This gave you a chance to see how she deals with the tough stuff. As many have pointed out, that's the point of being with a partner who works with you and continues to communicate. Then you can get through such things. Exactly. So even if Lumpy's suggestion would work... Seriously consider whether you want to be constantly chasing after her when she runs. If she approaches you to talk about it - sure, make the offer... but she has to learn to stop running on her own. It definitely wasn't that. I was motivated much more by fear. I thought everything was great between us and now something was happening that endangered us. I hoped it wouldn't happen. I wanted to at least bring it up since that's all I could do. I never dreamed it would turn into this. Her getting a pet shouldn't have endangered your relationship. If the pet turned vicious, maybe then - but you really do have to consider whether or not you can trust working with her for the solutions. There would always be a different solution than making Riven miserable long term. (Including that you could let Riven find his own peace with the new pet even if there is temporary discomfort.) Whether it is her or someone else - you really do need to think about this. |
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Post by yellowjacket on Nov 4, 2008 15:51:58 GMT -5
What is concerning to me is that in the other interactions you have allowed Riven, you didn't give him or the other pets enough time to adjust - I want to make sure you give him that chance. I do follow your point on this one. I felt like I did in my other relationship. We were together for 7 months and the dogs were together 90% of that time. We practically lived together. She lived at my place from Friday night to Monday morning. I lived at hers the rest of the week. Riven was unhappy there so I tried to give him extra attention. I still felt guilty. They would all have a blow-up here and there of barking at each other but it was never actual biting. They were also very small dogs, much smaller than Riven. I wasn't going to end that relationship over it. It was unfortunate for Riven but it wasn't misery by any means. Plus, the instigator dog was 12 or 13 years old so wouldn't have been around forever. I didn't with the cat situation but it did scratch Riven between the eyes and draw blood. I wasn't willing to risk losing his eyesight. That was a moot point, though, as I didn't get very interested in the girl anyway. But in this relationship I was going to give Riven a chance. She was going to get a dog and I accepted that and told her I supported her decision because her happiness and Q's matter too. I didn't think giving Riv a chance and talking over what could happen were mutually exclusive. |
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Post by sheyd on Nov 4, 2008 15:59:23 GMT -5
And you are absolutely right! It shouldn't have been! She really has to deal with her running issue before anything real could be there - and you can't solve that for her.
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Post by JimB on Nov 4, 2008 19:34:16 GMT -5
One of the big mistakes I used to make in my feckless youth was trying to get women to reconsider their rejection of me. It often resulted in humiliation for me, and only very seldom did the women even pay lip service to giving the matter actual further thought.
The message is clear - she is shutting you down. Her reasons for doing so are either invalid (i.e. the dog situation) or unknown. But you won't find them out by pushing. As long as you've clearly communicated that you're willing to continue to fight for this if she is, you owe it to yourself to walk away. If the history the two of you have shared means enough to her, she'll turn up. If it doesn't, that's just another reason you're not right for each other, because clearly the time and experiences you've shared mean a great deal to you.
I'm sorry for your loss.
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Post by yellowjacket on Nov 5, 2008 9:36:17 GMT -5
The message is clear - she is shutting you down. Her reasons for doing so are either invalid (i.e. the dog situation) or unknown. But you won't find them out by pushing. Thanks, Jim, this is wise advice. As so many used to say on OJar, they can't miss you if you don't go away. During this time I need to really look at what kind of partner she'd be in the future instead of just thinking how happy the times were together in the past during the easy stuff. I don't see her being a good partner and I hope this will sink in as the emotion wears away. Perhaps she never comes back but if she does I have to be strong enough to make the right choice, not just the easy one short-term. |
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