thinking out loud

[JimB]

So I find myself thinking a lot about my relationship lately. Those who know me may be surprised to find out that's not something I do much of - my philosophy is to try to live life as much as possible, and not think about it too much. So the fact that I am thinking about it is notable in itself.

The underlying theme to these thoughts is one of mild dissatisfaction. In the past, I've attributed such things to the time of year - I do struggle in the winter sometimes - but somehow this feels different. Here are some of the things I'm thinking about.

- She and I are dramatically different people on many levels, some of which are pretty fundamental.
- Our relationship isn't nearly as compelling to me since we moved in together.
- I care deeply for my partner, but I feel like the emotions I feel towards her are not as strong as they have been in the past.
- After being with someone for 5 years and living together for 2, the relationship pretty much is what it is - it's not going to change significantly.
- She doesn't share my attitude towards any of the following: personal growth, financial responsibility, intellectual stimulation, the arts, or our mutual roles in the relationship. All of which are very important to me.

In short, I am feeling like I want something better. What's more, I think I've wanted something better for some time, but I've always been a conflict avoider to some extent - subconsciously I'd rather be mildly dissatisfied than create a scene. I might be reaching the point where the dissatisfaction is uncomfortable enough to overcome my reluctance.

The reason I'm taking this more seriously now is because the catalyst isn't me meeting someone else in particular. In the past, I've had crushes (ohmigod I just met so-and-so andshe'sjustsoAMAZING) which have led to periods of intense self-scrutiny and growth spurts, but that's not the case this time. What has happened recently is I've had a number of social interactions over the past few months with different people (male and female, individually and in groups), and ALL of them have been more satisfying than the kind of interactions I've been having with her. And it's not like we're fighting, or there's a great deal of tension - it's just kind of there.

What's more, our socialization with each other is at an all-time low. We're both trying to save money, so we use that as an excuse. We don't have much free time at the same time - for me, musical pursuits, and for her, professional ones. Our tastes in movies and music have very little common ground, so it's hard for us to agree. She doesn't care for my friends, and while I don't have a problem with most of her friends, I don't want to hang out with them all the time. And I don't enjoy her company in large groups, because she tends to draw all the attention to herself (and gets mad when I don't play along).

So I wonder if our relationship has maxed out its potential. I think a childless long-term relationship presents a unique set of problems - with no children to shift attention to, that attention remains squarely on each other. I know I'm not having children with this woman - that's one of the primary foundations of our relationship, and she and I agree that she's not really mother material. And I've moved from being anti-children to thinking I could do that if I was with EXACTLY the right woman. But I don't think that has a lot to do with how I'm feeling - I still have a really good life without children, but it probably puts more responsibility on my partner to keep me involved in the relationship.

Further complicating these matters is the fact that I can't share these kinds of thoughts with her. She loves me, but for her, love doesn't seem to translate well into working to create a better path for us. So when things like this come up, she tends to take it very personally, and then the response I get from her is more a reaction to her pain than any desire to develop a new, better course of action going forward. And I've always hated drama.

Ultimately, we just don't seem to enjoy each other. In her case, it seems to be because she's so caught up in her feelings towards me that she gets blasted by their intensity (and sometimes I do too). In my case, I think I've mentally pigeonholed her as far as what she can and cannot provide for me, and she continues not to prove me wrong. Besides, I'm sure to some degree I'm trying to distance myself from the intensity of her emotions.

Again, things aren't really that dire - just kind of flatlined. We lead pretty separate lives, and we both like it that way. But that doesn't lend itself to growth as a couple. So what next for us?

[freckles]

Jan 16, 2009 13:18:23 GMT -5 JimB said:

So I find myself thinking a lot about my relationship lately. Those who know me may be surprised to find out that's not something I do much of - my philosophy is to try to live life as much as possible, and not think about it too much. So the fact that I am thinking about it is notable in itself.

The underlying theme to these thoughts is one of mild dissatisfaction. In the past, I've attributed such things to the time of year - I do struggle in the winter sometimes - but somehow this feels different. Here are some of the things I'm thinking about.

- She and I are dramatically different people on many levels, some of which are pretty fundamental.
- Our relationship isn't nearly as compelling to me since we moved in together.
- I care deeply for my partner, but I feel like the emotions I feel towards her are not as strong as they have been in the past.
- After being with someone for 5 years and living together for 2, the relationship pretty much is what it is - it's not going to change significantly.
- She doesn't share my attitude towards any of the following: personal growth, financial responsibility, intellectual stimulation, the arts, or our mutual roles in the relationship. All of which are very important to me.

In short, I am feeling like I want something better. What's more, I think I've wanted something better for some time, but I've always been a conflict avoider to some extent - subconsciously I'd rather be mildly dissatisfied than create a scene. I might be reaching the point where the dissatisfaction is uncomfortable enough to overcome my reluctance.

The reason I'm taking this more seriously now is because the catalyst isn't me meeting someone else in particular. In the past, I've had crushes (ohmigod I just met so-and-so andshe'sjustsoAMAZING) which have led to periods of intense self-scrutiny and growth spurts, but that's not the case this time. What has happened recently is I've had a number of social interactions over the past few months with different people (male and female, individually and in groups), and ALL of them have been more satisfying than the kind of interactions I've been having with her. And it's not like we're fighting, or there's a great deal of tension - it's just kind of there.

What's more, our socialization with each other is at an all-time low. We're both trying to save money, so we use that as an excuse. We don't have much free time at the same time - for me, musical pursuits, and for her, professional ones. Our tastes in movies and music have very little common ground, so it's hard for us to agree. She doesn't care for my friends, and while I don't have a problem with most of her friends, I don't want to hang out with them all the time. And I don't enjoy her company in large groups, because she tends to draw all the attention to herself (and gets mad when I don't play along).

So I wonder if our relationship has maxed out its potential. I think a childless long-term relationship presents a unique set of problems - with no children to shift attention to, that attention remains squarely on each other. I know I'm not having children with this woman - that's one of the primary foundations of our relationship, and she and I agree that she's not really mother material. And I've moved from being anti-children to thinking I could do that if I was with EXACTLY the right woman. But I don't think that has a lot to do with how I'm feeling - I still have a really good life without children, but it probably puts more responsibility on my partner to keep me involved in the relationship.

Further complicating these matters is the fact that I can't share these kinds of thoughts with her. She loves me, but for her, love doesn't seem to translate well into working to create a better path for us. So when things like this come up, she tends to take it very personally, and then the response I get from her is more a reaction to her pain than any desire to develop a new, better course of action going forward. And I've always hated drama.

Ultimately, we just don't seem to enjoy each other. In her case, it seems to be because she's so caught up in her feelings towards me that she gets blasted by their intensity (and sometimes I do too). In my case, I think I've mentally pigeonholed her as far as what she can and cannot provide for me, and she continues not to prove me wrong. Besides, I'm sure to some degree I'm trying to distance myself from the intensity of her emotions.

Again, things aren't really that dire - just kind of flatlined. We lead pretty separate lives, and we both like it that way. But that doesn't lend itself to growth as a couple. So what next for us?

Marry Her

[shattered]

You said that she loves you.

Do you love her?

(If it takes you more than a moment to answer this, you may have your answer right there about what is next for your relationship.)

Some more questions:

-- You're obviously not feeling passionately in love with her now -- but did you ever?

-- If yes, do you want to feel that way -- with her -- again? (If not, that again, may tell you alot.)

-- If yes, has this happened with other women in the past, where you start out strong, and then things just kind of fizzle/you lose interest? (If so, then the issues may not be specific to her and this relationship. If not, then the issues likely are specific to this relationship.)

This is for my own clarification:

-- What does "I know I'm not having children with this woman - that's one of the primary foundations of our relationship" mean?

(That sounds like your main bonding point is not wanting kids. That doesn't sound nearly enough to base a relationship on.)

Having more fun with just about anyone else than with her is not good. You say you can't talk to her about this stuff, that she takes it personally. Well, in her defense, it's kind of hard not to take it personally when the man you love and are intimate with tells you he'd rather be with anyone but you! (I'm not saying you literally said this to her, I'm just saying these issues *are* personal.)

So, since this is how you feel, however, and endlessly suffering silently through dissatisfaction, mild or otherwise, most likey won't change anything, seems you do need to talk to her.

Find a way to bring up these matters as delicately and diplomatically as you can, perhaps holding off on what a great time you're having whenever she isn't around.

But the main question you need to ask youself is: Do you feel the relationship is worth saving -- do you *want* to save it?

If yes, I think there is a lot of potential to make things better. If no, (or if ambivalent, same thing), you've got your answer about the next step is.

[amola]

jim........is this the one that you were with during ojar-chicago? i'm trying to do the mental math and i think so, but i want to make sure before i say anything else.

[JimB]

I believe so. There wasn't anyone else in the picture for about a year prior.

[amola]

i want to say that her name starts with v?

anyway, assuming that it's the same one, and i really think that it is.....

the thing that you said about not enjoying her company in large groups - i could see that then. she did seem to enjoy having the spotlight on her, which is not necessarily a bad thing. but, if you're not comfortable with it, it could be an issue.

to me, it seems like you've sort of got your mind made up already. you don't feel like the relationship is going anywhere but you know that it'll create drama if you try to discuss it with her. so to me, the bottom line is the same as what shattered said - do you want to save the relationship?

if you do, you're going to have to talk to her about it and be prepared for the drama. but there's a chance that since you're feeling all of this, that maybe she is too, but she's afraid to bring it up for whatever reason. i really think that you should sit her down and talk about it - otherwise, should it end, you're going to walk around for however long saying "i wonder what would have happened if i had just talked to her about it".....

you deserve to be happy. and if you're not, then you need to do something about it.

[jules]

Lots to think about.

In my opinion, a relationship that doesn't grow, dies.

Also, while it's all very well and good to have different interests and maintain individuality within a relationship, for the core stuff that is really important -- both people need to be on the same page in order for it to work.

But at the same time, it seems you're putting an awful lot of responsibility on HER to keep the relationship "fresh". What are YOU doing to keep the relationship growing? This is something to think about whether or not you decide continue your current relationship.

[shattered]

Jan 16, 2009 16:04:02 GMT -5 jules said:

Lots to think about.

In my opinion, a relationship that doesn't grow, dies.

Also, while it's all very well and good to have different interests and maintain individuality within a relationship, for the core stuff that is really important -- both people need to be on the same page in order for it to work.

But at the same time, it seems you're putting an awful lot of responsibility on HER to keep the relationship "fresh". What are YOU doing to keep the relationship growing? This is something to think about whether or not you decide continue your current relationship.

Agree with Jules.

Reminds me of what I meant to include in my response:

You said that "In my case, I think I've mentally pigeonholed her as far as what she can and cannot provide for me" -- that is honest of you to recognize, but also sounds like you've mentally placed her in a position where she can't win regardless of what she does.

"...and she continues not to prove me wrong" -- Are you letting yourself give her real, genuine opportunities for that, or do you have your mind made up? (Maybe you do and maybe you don't -- not trying to make you out to be any bad guy, just want to provide some challenging food for thought.)

[goods]

A wise Ojarian once said, "The grass is greener, where you water it"

[freckles]

Jan 16, 2009 16:04:02 GMT -5 jules said:

Lots to think about.

But at the same time, it seems you're putting an awful lot of responsibility on HER to keep the relationship "fresh". What are YOU doing to keep the relationship growing? This is something to think about whether or not you decide continue your current relationship.

most people are selfish and expect the OTHER person to carry them on a pillow

[JimB]

I think it's safe to say I'm kind of demanding in certain areas of a relationship. I rely on my charm and dashing good looks to make up for that. ;D

Seriously, I know I ain't perfect, and there are areas where I put the onus on my partner. It's probably unfair. But that's real life.

Sometimes I feel like I spend my whole life looking in the mirror and saying "What can I do to make this better?" I just get tired of it sometimes. That's why I posted this mostly as a vent. But I appreciate all the feedback and will gladly accept more.

[freckles]

Dr Laura Slessenger asks people who say things like that

*What is your Gift you give the other Person ?

She asks both People that

That confuses them, because they expect the OTHER person to do the giving

She asks what is your Gift of Love ?

Do you embrace them when they walk in the door ?

Are you happy to see them ? Want to Love them ?

What is your gift of love ?

If both People do that

It is better


P.S.
I was like that

But, my ExWife was a broken Person who could not be like that

[Mod (PQ-Kermie)]

Jim... I'm not going to tell you anything you don't already know.

If you feel like the relationship isn't working... then its not.

If you feel that you are holding on to something that isn't there.. sooner or later it will slip through your grasp.. just depends on how far up the rope you are as to how much it will burn falling down from it.

One thing that I think life has taught most of us in this group is that if we try to settle for what we think is the best for our partner.. we end up settling what is less for us. In the end we are the ones who pay for that decision. I have learned one or two things through the past 4 years. I have learned to trust my true judgment. I have learned that those around us that want something want nothing for us in most cases. I have also learned that there are those out there that are the perfect match.. think of others before themselves.. and give love without expecting anything in return. You have to ask yourself if this is what your looking for. If not stay.. if so.. move on.. or get a damn think pair of gloves cause your doing nothing but climbing that rope higher and higher.

[kittenhart]

Jan 16, 2009 13:18:23 GMT -5 JimB said:

So I wonder if our relationship has maxed out its potential.... And I've moved from being anti-children to thinking I could do that if I was with EXACTLY the right woman. But I don't think that has a lot to do with how I'm feeling.

It might have more to do with how you're feeling than you think.

I think Shattered said alot of excellent things in her post and posed some helpful questions to consider and I don't really have anything to add except that you owe it to her (and to yourself) to get to the bottom of how you're feeling about all of this and communicate with her- even though it isn't going to be easy and drama-free. (I second what Shattered said about not mentioning to her that you are happier around everyone else than you are around her- there's such a thing as being too painfully honest, and that's simply not necessary).

You might find that things get better after you talk about it.
Or not.

But there is nothing that zaps your energy more than daily avoiding the big effing elephant in the room that noone has the guts to talk about....this I sadly learned the hard way.

You know your own history and should be able to tell if this kindof dissatisfaction is just a phase, and if it is more related to your own mind than to her. Really ask yourself if you think you are being fair in what you are expecting of her- or of any woman for that matter. You say in your post that you're "wondering if there may be someone better" but what if there isn't? Ask yourself- if you ended up alone (not with someone better) is the dissatisfaction you're feeling right now "bad enough" that you would rather be on your own?

[jules]

Jan 16, 2009 17:25:48 GMT -5 JimB said:

I think it's safe to say I'm kind of demanding in certain areas of a relationship. I rely on my charm and dashing good looks to make up for that. ;D

Seriously, I know I ain't perfect, and there are areas where I put the onus on my partner. It's probably unfair. But that's real life.

It may be real life for you, but it's also a choice. It's important that you recognize that. And, yeah, it is unfair to hand over the relationship reins to the other person and then complain about the tempo and the direction taken.

Jan 16, 2009 17:25:48 GMT -5 JimB said:

Sometimes I feel like I spend my whole life looking in the mirror and saying "What can I do to make this better?" I just get tired of it sometimes. That's why I posted this mostly as a vent. But I appreciate all the feedback and will gladly accept more.

Feel free to vent, and don't take responses as personal criticism -- simply feedback from uninvolved third parties. Think like a guy.