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Post by freckles on Mar 15, 2008 18:24:42 GMT -5
Alcohol is a Sprit
I think a lot of Alcoholics are Possesed
And the Demon is making them Drink Alcohol
They may need a Exorcism
Go ahead Laugh
But, when they are chasing you with a Ax
saying they are a Demon
you may think diffrent
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Post by wizer on Mar 15, 2008 18:35:32 GMT -5
And the Demon is making them Drink Alcohol They may need a Exorcism Go ahead Laugh
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Post by finding on Mar 15, 2008 18:52:05 GMT -5
Er, does that mean that bulimia or anorexia are not diseases either then? I mean, the alcoholic could just not drink right? "Disease" gone??? Well the anorexic could just go have a burger. "Disease" gone??? Just because an illness has its root cause in the brain rather than the body doesn't make it less of an illness, or make the sufferer less worthy of aid and empathy. Someone who has made poor choices and is weak does not deserve sympathy and a "there there, let's make it all better". I have made plenty of poor choices in my life. You pick yourself up by your bootstraps and you move on, make the best of a bad situation, and learn from your mistakes. Labeling someone's poor choices as a "disease" or what not is enabling and allows the poor behavior to continue as "I can't help it, I have a disease". If I get lung cancer from my years of smoking, or skin cancer because I used to sunbath then it is my own damn fault and have no one to blame but myself. I made my choices and I will have to live with those consequences no matter what they are. No, I'm not saying to deny help for those who ask for it, just don't enable it by giving them a label that makes it somewhat acceptable.
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Post by Magalucia on Mar 15, 2008 19:10:38 GMT -5
Er, does that mean that bulimia or anorexia are not diseases either then? I mean, the alcoholic could just not drink right? "Disease" gone??? Well the anorexic could just go have a burger. "Disease" gone??? Just because an illness has its root cause in the brain rather than the body doesn't make it less of an illness, or make the sufferer less worthy of aid and empathy. Someone who has made poor choices and is weak does not deserve sympathy and a "there there, let's make it all better". I have made plenty of poor choices in my life. You pick yourself up by your bootstraps and you move on, make the best of a bad situation, and learn from your mistakes. Labeling someone's poor choices as a "disease" or what not is enabling and allows the poor behavior to continue as "I can't help it, I have a disease". If I get lung cancer from my years of smoking, or skin cancer because I used to sunbath then it is my own damn fault and have no one to blame but myself. I made my choices and I will have to live with those consequences no matter what they are. No, I'm not saying to deny help for those who ask for it, just don't enable it by giving them a label that makes it somewhat acceptable. So lung cancer cause by smoking is not a disease? Again, calling alcoholism a disease is not enabling bad behavior. Any alcoholic who acts out and uses the fact that alcoholism is a disease as an excuse is being dishonest and manipulative. However, understanding the disease of alcoholism helps not only the alcoholic but also their family and friends understand the mechanics. Enabling an alcoholic is buying them a bottle of scotch or calling their boss and saying they have a cold and can't come into work when they are really drunk or hungover. Understanding an alcoholic is knowing that once they have had that first drink it is much more difficult to say no to the second or third than for a non-alcoholic. Understanding is not saying carry on you can't help it. It is understanding triggers and helping support a healthy lifestyle that will ideally keep an alcoholic sober.
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Post by wizer on Mar 15, 2008 19:13:58 GMT -5
Hmm..
Mags, I think that what Finding is saying is that the word "disease" has a connotation of being something that cannot be "fixed" or "treated", and that calling alcholism a disease makes it sound like the person in question has no accountability for their condition and there is no way to make things improve.
Lung cancer IS a disease, but the condition that led to it..the smoking...is a habit.
I don't think that diabetes and alcoholism can both be considered "diseases" in the same context.
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newts
New Member
Posts: 45
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Post by newts on Mar 15, 2008 19:21:43 GMT -5
I agree L - It's an addiction not a disease. I think they refer to such addictions as a disease because in most cases people will fight this battle for many years or even an eternity.
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Post by finding on Mar 15, 2008 19:23:05 GMT -5
Alcohol is a Sprit I think a lot of Alcoholics are Possesed And the Demon is making them Drink Alcohol They may need a Exorcism Go ahead Laugh But, when they are chasing you with a Ax saying they are a Demon you may think diffrent Then why did Jesus turn the water into wine Freckles?
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Post by Magalucia on Mar 15, 2008 19:25:11 GMT -5
Hmm.. Mags, I think that what Finding is saying is that the word "disease" has a connotation of being something that cannot be "fixed" or "treated", and that calling alcoholism a disease makes it sound like the person in question has no accountability for their condition and there is no way to make things improve. Lung cancer IS a disease, but the condition that led to it..the smoking...is a habit. I don't think that diabetes and alcoholism can both be considered "diseases" in the same context. Here again we get into the murky area of trying to quantify suffering. So an alcoholic deserves shame and contempt where a diabetic only deserves compassion and understanding? Because that is the subtext. It is so much easier to say alcoholics are irresponsible and have brought their problems on themselves and call it a day. It is easy, but not accurate. And as far as I know alcoholism cannot be cured. You are an alcoholic for life. And it is a bit more complicated than just will-power and pulling yourself up by your boot straps. If it were in fact that easy, there would not be so many families torn apart because of it. The idea that if your poor choices cause you injury it is your own damn fault and you should just deal with it and not deserve compassion or dignity reminds me a bit of the arguments made against single moms on welfare. Some made poor choices and now the government helps pick up the tab for raising their kids. Does that mean they or their children deserve any less respect or understanding because mom may have made some poor choices? Should we just expect her to pick herself up by her bootstraps and move on without taking account of the many nuances of her circumstances?
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Post by wizer on Mar 15, 2008 19:32:37 GMT -5
Then why did Jesus turn the water into wine Freckles? He didn't have any cash on him and the guy in the liquor store wouldn't spot him 5 bucks for a bottle of house vino.
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Post by finding on Mar 15, 2008 19:35:57 GMT -5
Hmm.. Mags, I think that what Finding is saying is that the word "disease" has a connotation of being something that cannot be "fixed" or "treated", and that calling alcoholism a disease makes it sound like the person in question has no accountability for their condition and there is no way to make things improve. Lung cancer IS a disease, but the condition that led to it..the smoking...is a habit. I don't think that diabetes and alcoholism can both be considered "diseases" in the same context. Here again we get into the murky area of trying to quantify suffering. So an alcoholic deserves shame and contempt where a diabetic only deserves compassion and understanding? Because that is the subtext. It is so much easier to say alcoholics are irresponsible and have brought their problems on themselves and call it a day. It is easy, but not accurate. And as far as I know alcoholism cannot be cured. You are an alcoholic for life. And it is a bit more complicated than just will-power and pulling yourself up by your boot straps. If it were in fact that easy, there would not be so many families torn apart because of it. The idea that if your poor choices cause you injury it is your own damn fault and you should just deal with it and not deserve compassion or dignity reminds me a bit of the arguments made against single moms on welfare. Some made poor choices and now the government helps pick up the tab for raising their kids. Does that mean they or their children deserve any less respect or understanding because mom may have made some poor choices? Should we just expect her to pick herself up by her bootstraps and move on without taking account of the many nuances of her circumstances? Your barking up the wrong tree with this one Mags. I have been on welfare. I utilized services available after the ex and I split up to get myself ahead and where we needed to be. I have two boys with autism and if I so chose, I would never have to work a day in my life. I made the poor choice of marrying my ex, who turned out to be a dead beat dad and then killed himself. Nuances, schmoaunces. We are all accountable for our own actions. I don't think many people have had near a hard of a road as I have had, and am still facing. Even if I wanted the help at this point I couldn't get it. The nuances of an abusive alcoholic ex mean nothing as I am forced to pull myself up by my bootstraps and figure things out on my own because we don't qualify for services.
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Post by Magalucia on Mar 15, 2008 19:41:27 GMT -5
Here again we get into the murky area of trying to quantify suffering. So an alcoholic deserves shame and contempt where a diabetic only deserves compassion and understanding? Because that is the subtext. It is so much easier to say alcoholics are irresponsible and have brought their problems on themselves and call it a day. It is easy, but not accurate. And as far as I know alcoholism cannot be cured. You are an alcoholic for life. And it is a bit more complicated than just will-power and pulling yourself up by your boot straps. If it were in fact that easy, there would not be so many families torn apart because of it. The idea that if your poor choices cause you injury it is your own damn fault and you should just deal with it and not deserve compassion or dignity reminds me a bit of the arguments made against single moms on welfare. Some made poor choices and now the government helps pick up the tab for raising their kids. Does that mean they or their children deserve any less respect or understanding because mom may have made some poor choices? Should we just expect her to pick herself up by her bootstraps and move on without taking account of the many nuances of her circumstances? Your barking up the wrong tree with this one Mags. I have been on welfare. I utilized services available after the ex and I split up to get myself ahead and where we needed to be. I have two boys with autism and if I so chose, I would never have to work a day in my life. I made the poor choice of marrying my ex, who turned out to be a dead beat dad and then killed himself. Nuances, schmoaunces. We are all accountable for our own actions. I don't think many people have had near a hard of a road as I have had, and am still facing. Even if I wanted the help at this point I couldn't get it. The nuances of an abusive alcoholic ex mean nothing as I am forced to pull myself up by my bootstraps and figure things out on my own because we don't qualify for services. I am not barking. I am suggesting you are seeing things in black and white. I have an abusive alcoholic ex as well. I am no stranger to alcoholics. That does not keep me from having compassion for them or understanding that there but for the grace of (fill in the blank) go I. Illness does not excuse bad choices. Bad choices do not negate illness either.
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Jaded
Full Member
Posts: 223
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Post by Jaded on Mar 15, 2008 19:41:35 GMT -5
I agree with Magalucia. People can be born with an alcoholic personality and never take a drink. Even then that doesn't mean they might not need therapy. Those who are unknowing about it and don't realize they have this issue innocently drink with others (it's legal, can't fault them for that) and they develop a severe dependency on it.
I believe it very much is a disease.
Sure you can say "they need to stop" but there are drivers behind this that are very powerful. It is hereditary to boot. It's like saying anyone who gets skin cancer knew better than to ever go out in the sun.
If you don't think it is a disease then you must have never met a person with an alcoholic personality who doesn't even drink. It is a very real condition.
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Post by wizer on Mar 15, 2008 19:43:41 GMT -5
How about we just say that alcoholism is a disease but it's more treatable than other diseases such as diabetes and hypertension, and that if the person can really get motivated to deal with their problem then they can be more successful with a disease like alcoholism as compared to many of the others...?
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Jaded
Full Member
Posts: 223
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Post by Jaded on Mar 15, 2008 19:47:34 GMT -5
I conqur with that steve...
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Post by Magalucia on Mar 15, 2008 19:48:03 GMT -5
How about we just say that alcoholism is a disease but it's more treatable than other diseases such as diabetes and hypertension, and that if the person can really get motivated to deal with their problem then they can be more successful with a disease like alcoholism as compared to many of the others...? Steve, that is the whole problem. Alcoholism is not easily treatable. The cornerstone of any addiction, including alcoholism, is denial. You have a powerful drive to drink, tremendous denial, and a body that works against you when you drink. If I thought Freckles' idea of an exorcism might have worked, I would have begged every priest I could find for one. Alcoholism is not easy to treat. That is why I don't have my husband and my child does not have her father. It is not that easy.
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