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Post by kittenhart on Mar 10, 2008 0:32:49 GMT -5
Or perhaps I am normal and am just in an unhealthy relationship with someone who doesn't really love me thus turing me into a basket-case? You know in your heart that you are not a bad person and that you can't meet the right person for you if you stay with him.
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Post by RO on Mar 10, 2008 0:36:43 GMT -5
Or perhaps I am normal and am just in an unhealthy relationship with someone who doesn't really love me thus turing me into a basket-case? You know in your heart that you are not a bad person and that you can't meet the right person for you if you stay with him. I think khart put it beautifully. No, you cannot tell your heart who you will love...but don't repeatedly allow yourself to get hurt. You deserve so much better and you won't find it until you let this go. Or you will continue on this neverending circle... You are an intelligent, beautiful, fun, free spirit that should not be controlled in this manner. Don't let him keep this hold over you...release it.
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Post by goods on Mar 10, 2008 8:11:06 GMT -5
He stirs emotion in you, good and bad. You crave it. I am the same way, an emotional addict. You are addicted to the rollercoaster, the pain and pleasure. It sucks you back into him, you both love and hate him. Emotional pain is better than no emotion at all, you feel alive even when you are hurting.
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Post by JimB on Mar 10, 2008 9:14:51 GMT -5
I went back and browsed your post for signs of "psychobitch-ness". Pardon the selective cut and pasting. We agreed to meet fro brunch at 10.30 ish on Friday morning – he said he’d call me when he woke up. 10am, no call. 10.30am no call. 11am no call. I kept calling his phone but it just went straight to voicemail. Exhibit A. Clear communication by you, agreement from him, clear failure to follow through on his part. Psychobitch factor: very low. Exhibit B. Following up with a friend out of legitimate concern for his well-being. Learn more than you really wanted to know. Extrapolate from past history into potential worst-case scenario. Psychobitch factor: Medium. Exhibit C. Waits to talk to him in an effort to avoid nasty, emotional confrontation. Psychobitch factor: very low. Refer back to exhibit A. Plans were for 10:30 meetup - he got around to calling at 3:45. That seems like a pretty late lunch, although maybe things are different in the Middle East. Regardless, not much time left for a "good day together", unless your day goes into the wee hours of the morning. Also, people do overreact. It's fair to suggest he should know by now that he's doing you no favors by letting you know you're overreacting, even if he happens to be right. It's also fair to suggest he should retain some awareness of his own history before he says something like that. Psychobitch factor: low. Exhibit D. Makes other plans rather than stewing or confronting. Psychobitch factor: very low. Exhibit E. Negative emotions not really dealt with, and vague plans made. Communication not specific, but a distinct set of expectations on your part. Psychobitch factor: (sorry) high. Exhibit F. He has asked you to alter your appearance, in the form of some non-specific requests. You have graciously consented and poured yourself into fulfilling these requests, asking nothing in return. You have received nothing in return - exactly what you asked for - and are upset by this. Psychobitch factor: high. I've snipped all the other stuff about unfulfilled expectations, because it's pretty much the same old story. Neither of you are perfect in this scenario. Bottom line is, if you're not communicating your expectations clearly, you can't blame him for not fulfilling them. At the same time, your expectations are perfectly valid - no reasonable partner would reject them in general, although a few specifics might be open for discussion. As I parse this more carefully, it occurs to me that you seem to have very specific ways in which you expect caring and love to be expressed to you. I've always thought such expectations are a trap - he is still a man, after all, and men express themselves very differently. I don't go in for that lovey dovey stuff either, and I always resent it when something like Valentine's Day (ugh) gets thrown in my face. Yet I consider myself a decent partner overall, as I make up for that in other areas. This, to me, sums up your difficulties right now. You're making a completely invalid assumption here. He doesn't know how you feel unless you tell him. And since he's a guy, you probably need to tell him repeatedly. If he's threatened by your feelings, that tells you something - your feelings are completely and wholly about you, not him, and he has to be able to handle them. If you make a specific request of him, to which he agrees, and then he fails to follow through, that's his responsibility. I'm also aware he has a very sketchy recent history, and many of his irresponsible actions have hurt you deeply. But you owe it to yourself to tell him how you feel, and if you expect something of him, express it clearly and put quantifiable parameters on it. If you don't, you're going to continue to hang out in limbo land indefinitely.
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Post by ionysis on Mar 10, 2008 9:56:05 GMT -5
Thank you JimB for taking such time with your post - it was very thoughtful. Thank you RO, Khart and Goods too - Goods I think you have a valid point but I'll reply to it in your thread instead of here.
I guess really that is the problem, we did discuss very specifically what each of us needed and put very clear parameters on it.
He needed me to be a. calm and rational b. to take care of myself physically to his standards c. to maintain a life of my own rather than putting everything into the relationship.
I expected him to a. talk to me when something is an issue rather than shutting me out or obsessing about it negatively b. never lie to me about anything again c. when he says he will do something to follow through.
We also talked twice since that initial discussion and I expressed to him (calmly and rationally) that 1. I feel upset when he doesn't want to kiss me and that I need to feel that we are becoming closer physically not that I am being frozen out as it makes me feel unattractive, unloved and rejected so that has to change; and
2. that I need him to demonstrate his affection by actually showing he has thought about me in some considerate fashion or made some sort of effort to do something caring / kind / romantic for me. We are supposed to be "reconciling" for God's sake - he can't even buy me a bunch of flowers or plan a surprise trip??!!! If not now when? And I know he CAN do it because in the first year we were together he did it all the time. And I don't mean I need it every week - just ONCE would be enough - just to make the gesture.
Neither of these things has been even attempted by him and I still feel that he is shutting me out, not telling me his feelings and I don't necessarily trust him to tell me the truth.
I agree with you on the evening thing though - I had expectations which he didn't know about and was cross with him for not being a mind reader. Unfair - but common female trait.
nevertheless, despite what I say above I am not helping in creating an atmosphere in which he feels comfortable doing these things for me. I know that ultimately I do have some control over my own feelings in this - regardless of his actions.
I need to put into practise my cognitive behavioural therapy and think about the relationship in a different way. I am focusing too much on the negative which starts a downward spiral. He does something which makes me disppointed with him, I get upset, he shuts off, I get more upset, he doesn't say anything right or give me security because he pulls away more, I scream for his love and attention, he runs for the hills.
Perhaps I need to stop looking for reasons to be angry with him, and for things which justify my insecurities and fears. I could approach things he does which upset me in a constructive manner rather than see them as proof of his inconsiderateness, lack of love and incompatibility.
Perhaps instead of fretting so much I need to inject more humour, more playfulness into the relationship - be more consistent in trying to talk about things in a teasing way or with gentleness rather than letting my bitterness or resentment seep through. Maybe I need to stop trying to create intensity between us (which I thrive on but which scares him) and instead try to make things fun and relaxed.
For example, he is right, if I hadn't driven back to Abu Dhabi in a huff but just gone shopping in Dubai instead when I called his friend I could have gone for lunch with the two of them and expressed my displeasure in a more measured way later on without blowing the whole thing into a catastrophe which has had long term negative effects on me.
I must keep telling myself that *I* am in control of my feelings here - he cannot MAKE me feel something. Everything has a rough handle and a smooth one. I just have to look for the smooth one when I take hold of things. I must be more disciplined with myself and with my emotions.
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Post by sheyd on Mar 10, 2008 10:15:05 GMT -5
Although I DO agree with all of your assessment, I think you are also missing the other half of the equation. These are all admirable goals - but where are his? I think Jim said it right I If he's threatened by your feelings, that tells you something - your feelings are completely and wholly about you, not him, and he has to be able to handle them. You can fix everything on your end, but you also have to face the fact that he is NOT fixing the things on his. Yes, you need to work to control your own emotions, but what kind of relationship is it when he can't handle that you have some? What kind of relationship is it when he shuts down because you don't think he is perfect?? If you make a specific request of him, to which he agrees, and then he fails to follow through, that's his responsibility. ARE you holding him responsible? Or excusing him because you are not perfect? Like I tell my kids, just because someone else misbehaves, that is no reason you get to. Even IF you don't handle it perfectly, he doesn't need to put you down for it. What happens when you REALLY need him for something - something emotional? Will it be ok if he isn't there when you are in a long-term committed relationship? It is bad enough now - what about then? if you expect something of him, express it clearly and put quantifiable parameters on it. You HAVE expressed it, you have expectations and desires - they aren't being met. So... do you ignore your expectations and desires? You have checked them here - no one thinks they are unreasonable - so why do you let him continue to put you down for them? Shey
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Post by ionysis on Mar 10, 2008 10:55:08 GMT -5
You have a point Shey, without doubt. But I feel like I should give him a chance to make good on trying to meet my needs - even partially - by creating an atmosphere which encourages him to want to do so.
I will try to foster the right attitude for one more month and see whether he is able to deliver in concrete ways on the things we have discussed. If not then I am prepared to walk away from this situation. But until I have collaboated in a postive and cosistent way and provided fertile ground for him to germinate the seedlings I need him to I will feel that I haven't given things a fair enough go.
If I can act in a way I am consistently proud of and in accordance with the agreements we have discussed and still there is still only barren ground by the time I go to Beijing in April I will know that he doesn't have the capacity to give me what I need. I can then use the time I'm away on holiday with my girlfriends to reset myself and move forward without him. My mother will be with me for ten days after I get back too which should help the transition if it comes to that.
But for now I will focus on the positive, on trying to make us both happy, and just pray that he tries to do the same.
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Post by JimB on Mar 10, 2008 11:14:51 GMT -5
But for now I will focus on the positive, on trying to make myself happy, and just pray that he tries to do the same. Fixed that for ya. Trying to make someone else happy is a losing battle, as you've clearly seen. Just live for yourself, and include him in that process. Not because your feelings obligate you to - because you want to.
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Post by ionysis on Apr 6, 2008 3:17:45 GMT -5
So, this weekend…
This weekend was good. Things are getting better. Or rather, I think *I* am getting better.
I wrote before that I have made up my mind to take control of my own happiness. Pia Melody wrote “I find that my ability to tolerate, and even enjoy, my partner’s differences rose in direct correlation with my ability to take care of myself and my own needs”. I have found this to be true. I am trying to stop waiting for someone else to make me happy – anyone else. I have really been surprised at the turnaround in myself having put into practice the theories I have read about. I have discovered that to an extent, other people can only affect you as much as you let them and that most of the emotions you feel you in some way have to CHOOSE to feel, they are not wholly put upon you.
This week I have striven to put out of my mind all negative thoughts and feelings about the relationship with R. If I have started to brood over the past or obsess that R isn’t showing me enough / love / affection / attention etc… I have distracted myself with other things – friends, work, gym, a book… and I’ve found that the frustration and resentment does just go away – like the craving when you give up cigarettes – you need to wait it out, and that can be hard, but it does go.
I have also adamantly refused to get upset, angry or irritated and have instead tried to focus on projecting sweetness, happiness and an attitude of utter relaxation. I refused to listen to the little voices in my head (“he only kissed me goodbye on the cheek – why doesn’t he want to kiss me properly?”, “he texted when he said he’d call”, “he was supposed to be making an effort and he hasn’t done anything special for me”) which I would usually allow to blow up into massive issues exemplifying the fact that he doesn’t love me and isn’t trying. Instead I looked past them entirely and concentrated on enjoying my life and played “the glad game” (thanks Shey – that really helped!).
Of course this meant that to R I was smiling instead of crying, relaxed instead of tense and angry and pleasant to be around instead of accusing and defensive. Oddly enough the effect on him was quite positive. Instead of being closed off, on the back foot and feeling harassed he slowly opened up, became more affectionate, smiley, wanted to kiss me and hold me, told me how much he enjoyed spending time with me and was complimentary and sweet.
It made me realize how I’d been just as responsible as him for disabling the process of rebuilding trust and intimacy by insisting that he be the one to take the lead in making me feel good and by maintaining an air of injured aggression. By letting go of the need to control the situation and by stopping the demands for redress, displays of contrition and demonstrations of affection I actually managed to create an environment which promoted healthy and positive feelings. By stopping being defensive (and offensive) I am allowing him to let down his defences too, which in turn makes me feel happy and relaxed. Rather than this constant negative spiral I am trying, with a huge effort, to turn the wheel back the other way and start a circle of positivity. It seems to be working ☺
I don’t know whether this positive momentum will continue but we seem to have struck a good balance. I am now able to get on with daily life and fit him in around things without him intruding into my thoughts obsessively. I look forward to seeing him but not a million times more than I look forward to seeing my girlfriends. If I can’t see him I don’t allow myself to feel disappointed or resentful I simply make other plans which are just as enjoyable – dinner with my friends, going for a run with my iPod, shopping, the beach, arranging a game of tennis etc. Finally I think I might be reaching a place of equilibrium. And that is through MY choices and MY decisions, not through anything he has or hasn’t done.
I so hope I’ve found the right road this time, after so much stumbling and self-abuse. I guess time will tell!
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Post by freckles on Apr 6, 2008 13:44:28 GMT -5
if you try to have a relationship with a Drunkered
know that Beer is number 1 to them
you are number 3 after thier cigarette
just my 2 cents
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Post by JimB on Apr 6, 2008 21:07:27 GMT -5
Finally I think I might be reaching a place of equilibrium. And that is through MY choices and MY decisions, not through anything he has or hasn’t done. Positive energy breeds positive energy. Ain't it amazing? People gravitate to positive, upbeat people. So R will naturally enjoy spending time with you more, as will others. Don't be surprised if you find yourself the center of more male attention in general as you continue along this path....
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Post by ionysis on Apr 8, 2008 0:36:33 GMT -5
Thanks Jim. I'm feeling really happy right now. R came over last night to watch a couple of episodes of 24 (I've got him hooked!). He called me in the afternoon and said he wouldn't be round until 9ish. My default reactions was "he said he'd spend the evening with me! I can't believe that he won't be coming earlier. Why doesn't he ever make an effort....! " Then I stopped myself short and thought about it. I was, as usual, being unreasonably demanding. He had to work late, had stuff to do. How would I expect that he'd react if I said I was going to be late? I'm starting to realise just how unacceptably bad tempered I've been and indeed got into the habit of being. Needless to say he was later than he said. He is pathologicaly tardy for everything. Normally I would have sat there waiting for him getting madder and madder because his being late was a sign that he isn't making an effort, doesn't care, is rude, thoughtless etc. But I didn't do that this time. Instead I tried on my costume for the fancy dress party I'm going to on Friday (theme is Golf Pros and Tennis Hos so it consists of a tiny weeny white tennis skirt, halter top and pink 6 inch heels) When he did get there I was still wearing it to open the door so I could surprise him and make him laugh ("tennis ho" not being my usual style!). So instead of an evening starting off with me being in a bad mood and him being defensive and guilty we just went straight into having fun and being relaxed with each other. He was affectionate and sweet and loving and said how much he loved spending time with me and he wants me to come and stay with him tonight too after I get back from my colleague's leaving drinks. I have something social on every evening this week and at the weekend which doesn't involve him - all things I am really looking forward to. I've got a bunch of friends and family coming out to visit me throughout April and work is ticking over nicely. My work-outs are going well and my tennis is improving. I'm happy regardless of what R does or doesn't do or say and regardless of how often we see each other. We only have one or two brief calls a day now rather than morning lunch afternoon and night because I don't feel the need to speak to him all the time which means we can both get on with work during the day more effectively. For the first time in 5 years my relationship with R (or lack of one) doesn't control or dominate me. If only I'd realised that the potential for me to be happy was within MY hands all the time - not by changing him or by changing the situation but to by changing the way I see things, my priorities and my attitude to life. I SO hope this feeling lasts and that it is the start of something positive in me rather than a temporary state of mind. Life is good and I'm so thankful for my blessings.
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Post by gdgross on Apr 8, 2008 16:46:37 GMT -5
Ion, I am not denying or contradicting what you say about your own contributions to the degeneration of your relationship.
However, I do think it's important not to take undue blame on yourself. When my ex left, I more or less accepted all of the responsibility for her actions. I think that I did this out of pain, not out of honest reflection and analysis. Now, two years later, I can see a little more clearly where the blame lies. Not that I'm innocent, but I certainly took more on more than my fair share of guilt.
I just want to caution you against doing the same. I don't know how you can get there, as in my case it only came with hindsight and healing. But I thought I'd bring it up anyway.
Good luck.
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Post by ionysis on Apr 9, 2008 2:36:05 GMT -5
Thanks gd. I know it wasn't all me, but it wasn't all him either. It was mostly how we interacted with each other.
What i do know is that *I* have to make me happy. Not that I should be taking all the blame in the relationship or that I should be changing myself for him or so the relationship can work, but that I should be changing myself for me - so I can be happy with myself. Whether it is to be with him or not.
I read an interesting thread the other day where people were discussing how it might even be possible to be happy with anyone given the right mindset and self-knowledge. I kind of see tthat, and where I live I see MANY arranged marriages which have worked and are working very well.
For me the differentiating factor has to be chemistry, and I always had buckets of that with R (from my side anyway - and that is all I can truly comment on).
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