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Post by shattered on Dec 30, 2008 11:04:27 GMT -5
I don't know whether I'd mentioned that ever since French guy left the U.S. on November 3, he's been in Israel, not France.
His parents have a house in Israel, and one of his sisters and brother are currently there. French guy is working at bakery of a friend of his, supposedly just until his work visa is approved and he can come back to D.C.
So, yesterday, one of the Hamas rockets smashed into the busstop where French guy gets off every day, about an hour after he was there.
A few minutes from his parents' house.
And this in the "guaranteed safe" (according to him) town of Ashdod. I never bought that for a second.
So, now he sees that his little world isn't immune from rockets. (Yes, in addition to being worried sick, I am pissed, because he always just pooh-poohed my concerns in the past, not even taking them seriously.)
Now he's staying with his sister who lives half an hour away where it is, once again, "impossible" for Hamas rockets to reach.
It gets better.
When I said (this morning on the phone; he had called me to tell me what happened) I don't understand why he doesn't just go back to France, he said he needs to say because his brother and sister are staying.
Why are they staying? His brother has a girlfriend in Israel he wants to stay with.
His sister, who is married with children, simply wants to stay.
Great, fine -- they are adults, they make their own choices and live their own lives. Umm, so why does that mean that their brother doesn't get to live his own life? Why does he have to stay???
OMG, this is worse than with my ex!!!! At least he acted this way about his kids!! Not about adult married siblings leading their own lives!
I got really upset on the phone this morning. I told him I had thought this whole time I was waiting for the visa to be approved, when in fact, I was waiting on whether or not his sister and her husband decide to move back to France!!
I feel so duped. Here I am, waiting for this guy day after day, with lovey-dovey phone calls and e-mails and continued emotional bonding, and he hadn't even had the decency to tell me what it is that I am waiting for!
He said he had to stay, because he promised his parents. (I won't even say here what I think about the parents forcing that on him.)
After about 30 mins, he had to go (he was at work) and we ended on a bad note.
I called him back half an hour later. Yeah, I know, I shouldn't have, but I really needed some sort of clarity. He told me that he had called his parents in the meantime and told them that once he gets the visa he will come back to D.C. right away.
I admit I felt momentarily encouraged.
Until it occurred to me how easy it will be for the visa to be delayed indefinitely. I mean, it's not like I would ever know whether the visa was approved or not. All he needs to do is tell me there is a hold-up.
I am nearly sick to my stomach and I can barely keep from crying at work.
I am worried about his safety and I am worried about what the heck is going on in this so-called relationship.
I guess the bottom line is that once again I'm an idiot. Perpetually hoping against hope, that an unworkable situation will somehow work out anyway.
He is not a bad guy. But it seems he is not willing or able to live his own life. Being close to your family is wonderful -- living your life for your family is another thing entirely.
I don't think he is maliciously purposely leading me on. But I am starting to feel more and more that his words and actions, however well intended, have the same result of leading me on.
I could just break up with him, I know.
But I'm still holding out hope.
Why, I don't know.
Just pathetic and desperate, I guess.
As usual.
My ex strung me along for years -- and I learned nothing.
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Post by freckles on Dec 30, 2008 12:48:56 GMT -5
I don't know whether I'd mentioned that ever since French guy left the U.S. on November 3, he's been in Israel, not France. His parents have a house in Israel, and one of his sisters and brother are currently there. French guy is working at bakery of a friend of his, supposedly just until his work visa is approved and he can come back to D.C. So, yesterday, one of the Hamas rockets smashed into the busstop where French guy gets off every day, about an hour after he was there. A few minutes from his parents' house. And this in the "guaranteed safe" (according to him) town of Ashdod. I never bought that for a second. So, now he sees that his little world isn't immune from rockets. (Yes, in addition to being worried sick, I am pissed, because he always just pooh-poohed my concerns in the past, not even taking them seriously.) Now he's staying with his sister who lives half an hour away where it is, once again, "impossible" for Hamas rockets to reach. It gets better. When I said (this morning on the phone; he had called me to tell me what happened) I don't understand why he doesn't just go back to France, he said he needs to say because his brother and sister are staying. Why are they staying? His brother has a girlfriend in Israel he wants to stay with. His sister, who is married with children, simply wants to stay. Great, fine -- they are adults, they make their own choices and live their own lives. Umm, so why does that mean that their brother doesn't get to live his own life? Why does he have to stay??? OMG, this is worse than with my ex!!!! At least he acted this way about his kids!! Not about adult married siblings leading their own lives! I got really upset on the phone this morning. I told him I had thought this whole time I was waiting for the visa to be approved, when in fact, I was waiting on whether or not his sister and her husband decide to move back to France!! I feel so duped. Here I am, waiting for this guy day after day, with lovey-dovey phone calls and e-mails and continued emotional bonding, and he hadn't even had the decency to tell me what it is that I am waiting for! He said he had to stay, because he promised his parents. (I won't even say here what I think about the parents forcing that on him.) After about 30 mins, he had to go (he was at work) and we ended on a bad note. I called him back half an hour later. Yeah, I know, I shouldn't have, but I really needed some sort of clarity. He told me that he had called his parents in the meantime and told them that once he gets the visa he will come back to D.C. right away. I admit I felt momentarily encouraged. Until it occurred to me how easy it will be for the visa to be delayed indefinitely. I mean, it's not like I would ever know whether the visa was approved or not. All he needs to do is tell me there is a hold-up. I am nearly sick to my stomach and I can barely keep from crying at work. I am worried about his safety and I am worried about what the heck is going on in this so-called relationship. I guess the bottom line is that once again I'm an idiot. Perpetually hoping against hope, that an unworkable situation will somehow work out anyway. He is not a bad guy. But it seems he is not willing or able to live his own life. Being close to your family is wonderful -- living your life for your family is another thing entirely. I don't think he is maliciously purposely leading me on. But I am starting to feel more and more that his words and actions, however well intended, have the same result of leading me on. I could just break up with him, I know. But I'm still holding out hope. Why, I don't know. Just pathetic and desperate, I guess. As usual. My ex strung me along for years -- and I learned nothing. Before I Married my ExWife, I was in a LDR for a Year The lady went with 2 or 3 other people during that time, I did not know about and strung me along That is why I Married my Ex so fast I was Tired of the , String - Along I was thinking you ether Do or dont Do All that * maybe maybe maybe - gets old Your Boyfriend does not need a Visa, all he has to do is Commit to you and Marry you and that let's him stay here for a lifetime That is, if that, is what He wants to do |
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Post by redskyatnight on Dec 30, 2008 13:31:18 GMT -5
Accept the facts as you have laid them out.
1. You are waiting for him to come to the US (whether it is for Visa, his siblings to move to France, the fighting to settle down or something else) You are waiting.
2. He is living in Israel.
3. He will not move back to France. He feels some family loyalty and will not leave them. You cannot force him to move. The choice to stay is ultimately his, despite what his parents or family or even you pressure him into. The choice to stay or to leave is his.
4. He believed he was safe, found out differently and moved to another place he thinks is safe.
5. You are worried about him and your relationship with him
6. You are mad at his family for putting him in a dangerous situation.
Objectively, what can you do to make things better:
1. Do nothing, continue to talk to him, get upset and not understand why he has made the choices he has made.
2. Do nothing, continue to talk to him, but understand that he is living his life right now and support whatever he needs to do.
3. Reduce your contact with him, live your life without him and talk to him once in a while, as friends, support his decisions and how he has chosen to live his life.
4. Reduce contact, but continue to tell him to ignore his immediate family and do as you wish, move to France.
5. Stop all contact.
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Post by shattered on Dec 30, 2008 13:40:36 GMT -5
Thank you, redsky, I like the idea of the list.
But none of this is about me telling him how to live his life. It is about him being open and honest with me. For instance, I found out only this very morning that he had long ago promised his parents that he would not leave Israel as long as his sister is still there.
Call me crazy, but I believe I deserved to know about that much earlier. As a matter of fact -- he told me on a daily basis that as soon as the visa arrives he will be on the plane the next day. So, he lied to me.
If he is not capable of living where his sister and her husband are not -- he should have told me so. Instead of withholding such crucial information and letting me wait around.
It is not some quirk of mine that I think healthy adults live their lives for themselves. His brother is choosing to stay with his girlfriend, without concern over whether that is what his parents happent to want at the moment. His sister and her husband have made their own choices.
And that is as it should be. It is absolutely a matter of concern if the French guy is not capable of also living his own life.
Now, if his biggest heart's desire is to give up his personal life and live wherever his sister or some other family member is -- so be it. But then he needs to TELL ME SO -- instead of constantly telling me that he wants to live his life and the most important thing for him is to be with me.
I deserve honesty and clarity here, and I have been getting the opposite.
I'm also not sure about this supporting his choices thing. We are in a love relationship, not a platonic friendship. We were supposedly both waiting with baited breath for his visa approval so we could be together.
If, in reality, he prefers to stay in Israel indefinitely, of course that is his right, but it will make our relationship impossible and we will have to end it. So of course that is not something I can "support."
Should a girlfriend "support" if her boyfriend "chooses to live his life" by boinking other women?
Of course not.
So why should anyone support her boyfriend withholding essential information from her and changing stories on her?
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Post by JimB on Dec 30, 2008 14:09:53 GMT -5
I deserve honesty and clarity here, and I have been getting the opposite. Here's the thing: an awful lot of honesty and clarity in relationships, IMO, comes from one person defining expectations. If you've been extremely forthright (and consistent) about your expectations w/r/t where this relationship is going and what needs to happen, you have every right to be angry with him. If not, well, your disappointment is exactly half your responsibility. Everyone in the world has conflicting loyalties from time to time. My impression is he is trying to be supportive of his family, and it's hard to criticize that, regardless of the circumstances. Does this in-the-moment truth override the longer-term "truth" of his commitment to you? Maybe. Is that wrong? I could be missing some information, but it seems to me you're extrapolating. It's a long way from "I'm staying here to support my brother and sister and fulfill a promise to my parents" to "I'm not coming to the US until my brother and sister decide on their living arrangements" unless he said that in so many words. Did he? Shattered, you're not holding out hope because you're pathetic and desperate - you're holding out hope because you've made an informed decision as an adult that that is what you want to do. Holding out hope is part of what makes you who you are. Never be ashamed of your optimism and your loyalty - they are excellent qualities. But IMO you're overreaching here. I understand your concerns, but it sounds like he's in a tough situation. By influencing him to get out of there, you risk coming between him and his family. Not a good foundation for a long term relationship. |
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Post by redskyatnight on Dec 31, 2008 11:19:12 GMT -5
New List:
What do you absolutely know, not think or know in your heart, but absolutely know.
1. He is living in Israel
2. You are waiting.
3. He has said he will move to the US as soon as he gets a work permit.
4. He has said he will not leave his sister behind in Israel.
How do these facts make you feel?
Only you can answer this, but I’ll offer a few things based on what I’ve perceived.
1. You feel anxious for his safety
2. You feel anxious for his arrival in the US
3. You feel lied to.
4. Fill in any other emotion that you have
What do you need to have happen to change how you feel?
Again, only you can answer this, but this situation is causing you great distress and you will need to resolve it one way or another. You will need ALL the facts, so think about them, write them down – from the beginning of your relationship to now. Do NOT include things you feel in the fact list, only write down the objective facts.
Then, think about how all this made you feel. Decide if you can continue to live with the way you feel or if something needs to change, either in your perception or in his actions or both.
Discuss your list of facts and how they make you feel with French guy. Try to come up with a plan together. If he says he will do something and doesn’t, you need to reevaluate the plan.
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Post by redskyatnight on Dec 31, 2008 11:22:36 GMT -5
Should a girlfriend "support" if her boyfriend "chooses to live his life" by boinking other women? Of course not, if you don't support his actions, you have the choice to leave. I'm not suggesting you 'stand by your man.' You have free will here too. |
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Post by freckles on Dec 31, 2008 13:59:01 GMT -5
he does not have a Visa yet he can get into Israel
Israel has the most toughest security in the world
And he can get a Visa for there? and not here ?
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Post by shattered on Jan 2, 2009 12:26:19 GMT -5
I deserve honesty and clarity here, and I have been getting the opposite. Here's the thing: an awful lot of honesty and clarity in relationships, IMO, comes from one person defining expectations. If you've been extremely forthright (and consistent) about your expectations w/r/t where this relationship is going and what needs to happen, you have every right to be angry with him. If not, well, your disappointment is exactly half your responsibility. Everyone in the world has conflicting loyalties from time to time. My impression is he is trying to be supportive of his family, and it's hard to criticize that, regardless of the circumstances. Does this in-the-moment truth override the longer-term "truth" of his commitment to you? Maybe. Is that wrong? I could be missing some information, but it seems to me you're extrapolating. It's a long way from "I'm staying here to support my brother and sister and fulfill a promise to my parents" to "I'm not coming to the US until my brother and sister decide on their living arrangements" unless he said that in so many words. Did he? Shattered, you're not holding out hope because you're pathetic and desperate - you're holding out hope because you've made an informed decision as an adult that that is what you want to do. Holding out hope is part of what makes you who you are. Never be ashamed of your optimism and your loyalty - they are excellent qualities. But IMO you're overreaching here. I understand your concerns, but it sounds like he's in a tough situation. By influencing him to get out of there, you risk coming between him and his family. Not a good foundation for a long term relationship. Thanks, JimB. You know I usually have a near-unseemly admiration for your posts, but I can't relate to this one. Maybe there is so much stuff that has gone on that I haven't mentioned here, that makes the situation seem other than it is, I don't know. |
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Post by shattered on Jan 2, 2009 12:27:54 GMT -5
he does not have a Visa yet he can get into Israel Israel has the most toughest security in the world And he can get a Visa for there? and not here ? Frecks -- that is precisely the point the French guy makes all the time. Supposedly we're all just waiting for the current visa application to be approved. But the real issue is whether he is telling me the full story or not. |
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Post by shattered on Jan 2, 2009 12:57:47 GMT -5
OK, redsky's lists have inspired me to do one (and I think I should keep it going on a near-daily basis, for my own clarity, but here's the opening salvo):
What I know:
1) He came close to being obliterated by a rocket.
2) I then asked him, a Frenchman, who has repeatedly told me he holds no particular love for living in Israel, why he doesn't return to France.
3) He answered me that the -- one and only -- reason he is continuing to stay in Israel is because his married sister happens to like living there and his parents feel better if he lives nearby -- and this revelation after MONTHS of him telling me that the ONLY issue keeping him from returning to D.C. is the visa approval.
4) This promise to his parents is one he made a while ago -- not after the Hamas attack -- all the while he was telling me the second he gets the visa he'll hop on the next plane to D.C.
5) That means he was either lying to me or to his parents.
6) Having family loyalty does not equal giving up your stated goals indefinitely because of your sister's 100 percent freely chosen place of residence (and she and her husband have the means to move virtually anywhere in the world tomorrow, as they have done so before and have more than enough financial means to do so).
7) All of this is his choice.
8) The fact that this is his choice means precisely...nothing. If your husband cheats on you, that is his choice. If your wife leaves you, that is her choice. If your SO disrespects you, lies to you, ignores, etc. etc., that is all his or her choice. OF COURSE all of this is his choice. Just about anything and everything someone does is his choice. And unless it's illegal, it's his or her right, as well. How does that make these actions any less detrimental to the relationship? This board exists for the very reason that people are hurt, shocked, angered, and devasted by other people's choices.
9) I deserve honesty from him about his true intentions about coming back. That's about as basic as it gets. (And yes, JimB, I have forthright and consistent about my expecations fromt the beginning.)
10) When he left in early November, he promised and swore, over and over again that he'd be back in a month. The absolute latest by Christmas.
11) By the time it was a few days before Christmas, he had said not one peep about not coming. He acted as if he had never made these promises.
12) When I finally asked him why he didn't at least acknowledge that he'd made these promises, and talk to me about not being able to keep them, his answer was "But I wanted to come."
13) He extremely often says one thing and does another.
14) I do not know when he is telling me the truth and when he isn't.
15) Whenever he tells me something regarding plans, he says "I know," "guaranteed," "I promise," "I swear," etc.
16) Whenever I point out that maybe he shouldn't promise all these things, as circumstances can change, or that the visa process could well take longer than the *two weeks* he claimed to *know* it would take -- he dismisses my concerns, telling me he simply knows how things work, and then when, every single time, things turn out differently, he ignores it. Then when I ask him about it, he says "It's not my fault!"
17) When I -- rarely -- show that I am upset or depressed about the situation, he pooh poohs me, or gets annoyed with me.
18) Of the four and a half months we have been an item, we have seen each other exactly three weeks.
19) He calls me every other day, we e-mail near-daily, and every conversation features him overflowing with love and yearning for me and promising me the moon and the stars.
20) The newest information from him is that the visa approval could now take until April.
How I feel:
1) Duped.
2) In pain.
3) Desperate.
4) Pathetic for feeling desperate.
5) Angry.
6) Strung along.
7) Heart-rendingly lonely.
8) Confused.
My options:
1) I can break up with him. That is easier said than done. There were so many intense emotions between us, and I so want to believe this can work.
2) I can continue as I have -- nearly always acting happy and cheerful when I talk to him, cheering HIM up when he's depressed, being supportive (when he only rarely tries to cheer me up or be supportive of me), occassionally daring to demand some honesty and clarity, not show that I am worried for his life, and pretend that this entire fucked-up situation isn't fucked-up.
3) I can set a deadline by when he needs to show up here. Until then I will proceed with option 2). The problem is that I had already had a deadline -- Christmas. I figured if he didn't stick to his entirely voluntarily stated and sworn return date, and then ignored the fact that he'd ever made the promise, I had no reason to believe him again. (He had sworn to me that he knew for a fact, that even while the visa is in progress, he can come on a visit, just as a tourist. Now, all of a sudden, he says that's not possible.)
4) "Support his choices" even more than I already have been and pretend I'm not human.
5) Check myself into a psych ward.
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Post by goods on Jan 2, 2009 14:28:40 GMT -5
Look at his actions, not words.
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Post by shattered on Jan 2, 2009 14:33:32 GMT -5
Look at his actions, not words. I know. Absolutely. Here's a question: Does calling me consistently ever other day like clockwork count as an action? Some of my friends -- one guy friend in particular -- thinks French guy is a total weirdo, and will probably never get his act together, but that he is sincere in his intentions. That no guy would keep calling that often month after month if he wasn't still seriously into the relationship. My mom doesn't even give him that much credit -- she thinks he means well, but is so screwed up that he'll be happy calling and e-mailing me a year from now, and that I should dump the bum. I just don't know. |
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Post by freckles on Jan 2, 2009 15:14:57 GMT -5
What do You want ?
Commitment or Maybes ?
To me it is a Choice
He can be in the USA next week and Marry You and thats it
Or
Maybes until ?
You and He have a Choice to make
No one else can do it for ethier of you
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Post by JimB on Jan 2, 2009 21:53:54 GMT -5
We've pretty much seen this from day one from this guy. I wouldn't necessarily call it lying, but he seems to invest a lot of effort in saying all the right things every time you speak. Apparently this includes withholding the kind of information that would upset you.
The more you write about him, the more I'm sure he's not a grownup, relationship-wise. You say your top priority in a relationship is stability, and at no point has he shown any ability to provide that. He's great at the things you like (romance, enthusiasm) but lousy at what you need. He seems to have a good heart and good intentions, but those aren't enough for a stable, adult relationship.
You have an opportunity here to start your new year by taking steps toward what you truly want more than anything in your life. Easy for me to say, but I know what I would do.
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