Well, I'll be darned...

[shattered]

He called me a gazillion more times at work yesterday, I did not pick up.

When I got home last night, he had left two messages on my machine: He really wants to talk to me, he loves and misses me, he really wants me to call him back.

I did not call him back.

Around 10:15, in the middle of South Park of all things (which I had been giving up for two weeks because of him), phone rings, I think it's my neighbor and pick up. (No, I do have have caller ID or a cell phone. I am a Luddite.)

It's the French fry.

He spends about 45 minutes telling me how he made a mistake, how wrong he was about everything (from taking his stuff without talking to me first, to yelling at me, to accusing me of not letting him see his family) saying that everything just went too fast for him.

Umm, no offense to the wonderful men on this board, but OMG -- WHAT IS IT WITH MEN??

I am not the one who, on the first day in Paris, said I loved him and wanted to spend my life with him and bear his children!!!

I was the one saying, slow down, slow down, slow down!

WTF???

I stayed pretty calm throughout the conversation with one exception, where my emotions got the better of me and I started crying.

Right away he said, "Don't cry."

I said, "Why? Because if I don't stop crying you'll hang up on me? Or you'll tell me again I'm doing it on purpose?"

He said, "No, of course not."

I asked him, then why this obsession with me not crying?

His response? "Because it make me pain. I know I cause you pain."

Ahhhhh. He can't handle his own guilt and therefore blames (or blamed) the person who was crying. Interesting.

At one point I told him that on Monday night when he just wouldn't stop yelling at me and I sat there crying, that I just kept thinking: "What happened to my wonderful, sweet boyfriend? Where is he? Where is my wonderful sweet petit patissier [little pastry chef]?"

He started bawling like a little boy, and we both cried together.

He said he can't forget the wonderful times we've had together, that he knows I am the right person for him (!), that he wants me to forgive him and give him another chance to prove to me that he means what he says.

He asked if I'd see him tonight. I said, "I'm going to a Halloween party." (An old acquitance is having party, French guy was of course supposed to come with me.)

Then he asked about Saturday, and I told him I'm not showing up at any coffee shop or park bench.

He asked did I want him to come to my place. I said I'm not going to say anything I want because how do I know he won't just turn on me again claiming I'm forcing him to do stuff.

He ended up begging me to let him come to my place to talk.

Interesting how the tables have turned.

I finally said, OK, Saturday 3 pm at my place.

At the moment I have the power back, it seems, but I still feel weak, because now I have my hopes up again. Probably just to be crushed again.

I am relieved he still loves me -- gag, gag, lovey mush -- but now it's all an emotional muddle again.

Yesteday, things were more clear-cut.

Ugh.

I read Shey and other's comments about the sweet vs. poison. I know. But: Don't a lot of people screw up and then get straight? Not syrupy like in an overblown movie, but don't we all know of cases where someone got cold feet, backed out, came back and is now married or in stable LTR?

I am having SUCH a hard time finding the balance between throwing out everything right now, and not being a push-over again.

Do I have him another chance? (Well, obviously, by agreeing to the talk on Saturday, I already have, but i mean, am I just fooling myself?)

[freckles]

It is what is in a Persons Heart

If His Heart is Love for You

And Yours is Love for Him

Then you can work through problems

If one or the others Heart changes to Hostility

Then Nothing will fix it

Its all about your Heart

[shattered]

Oh, Freckles, would that it were that simple.

I do not doubt his sincerity. I believe that he cares for me, loves me, feels sincerely bad about how he acted, I even believe that he wants a relationship with me.

But that doesn't mean he is capable of sustaining a relationship. He can have all the love of the world in his heart and the relationship still won't work if he remains unreliable, if he can't handle it.

He kept saying he hoped I would one day forgive him. Well, I already have. But that's not the issue.

I can believe him and forgive him a million times -- but that doesn't mean I'll be able to trust him.

[JimB]

not being a push-over again.

This is the key to everything you've said.

"Push-overs" are much rarer than people think. If your definition of a "push-over" is someone who is willing to make compromises in order to achieve or acquire one of their life's great desires, I don't agree.

As usual, you are too hard on yourself in some areas. At no point in this interaction would I say you've been a "push-over". You've given of yourself in a fashion appropriate to a relationship with somebody you care about and have aspirations with. If you continue to make this about power, it's going to be unsatisfactory even if it "works out".

Allowing yourself to forgive and be optimistic about a future with this man is not being a push-over - it's a reflection of your heart's desire. There are no guarantees here - you could forgive him and pick things up where you left off, only to have him break your heart again. You could end it, mourn, move on, and meet the real man of your dreams in a week, a month, a year. Or any number of other possible outcomes.

You just have to follow your heart, while allowing input from your brain and your gut. Nobody's judgment is better than yours.

[freckles]

That is True

Making it about Power is a Brother Sister (Sibling ) Relationship - Fighting about who has the Power

A Romantic - Marrage Relationship is about * Giving your Love/Gift to each Other with your whole Heart

[shattered]

Jim,

Thanks for the straight talk.

I know what you say is right.

The problem is that there is a limit to how or under what conditions you keep trusting people and giving them another chance. How I clung to the relationship with my ex was a prime example of how I was not working on the relationship in a healthy way -- I couldn't; I was the only one doing any work! -- but I really was being a push-over, a doormat; believing desperately in any half-hearted reassurance or crumb he threw my way.

That is very different with French guy at the moment, who seems to be willing to fight for me, which my ex never was, but, ugh, I just feel like I'm making a mistake letting him back into my life.

At the same time, given how the circumstances (his actions) have changed, now I really do fear I'd regret it forever if i don't at least have this talk with him.

Of course, if the talk goes well -- and likely it will, filled with his famous promises and declarations -- I'm sucked back in, and back to square one.

When I talk about power, I don't mean power over him, or like this is a competition, I mean power *within myself.* I guess "strength" would be a better word.

Right now, I will follow my heart -- I just hope that this time, my heart pays more attention to my gut and brain than it did with the last guy.

Shattered

[sheyd]

Trust is a big thing - and it isn't something that can be won and maintained in the short time he has left in the country. He may be sweet and wonderful for the duration of his time here, but then what? He goes back to France, maybe to return, maybe not - but you spend a whole lot of time worrying about where he is in the process, how he feels, whether he will turn on you or not...

Remember the part in one of the other posts where they said this kind of lovey-dovey is easy to maintain short term? That is what you are seeing. A lot of promises, but no way to know what that would be like long term. It isn't like you can "take it slow" and just date a little to see if he keeps pulling the same garbage.

Here's my take on it. You ARE going to go for it, it wouldn't matter if we all told you not to. You want this to work, you want it to be real. You won't be satisfied until you know for sure which is the "real" him (the crazy not-taking-responsibility guy, or the romantic "you are perfect and always right" guy). The truth is, he is probably somewhere in the middle, and will sway to each side on occasion. Which side he will mostly be on when he is in the middle - who knows. As long as you are going to go for it, then, the best anyone can do is help you have the tools to protect yourself.

So... set ground rules, like I said before. If he wants to be with you, he can NEVER rant like that again, nor can he get angry at your crying which is your natural response. Also - let HIM set some ground rules. You may only ask for reassurance x number of times during an x period would be a good start. Also a big one - set some ground rules for YOURSELF. If you feel that you aren't being respected or listened to - what are you going to do to change the situation? What are the limits of what you are willing to take, and what will you do if he reaches them? Set boundaries IN ADVANCE. Also - set some "code words" - ways you each know to stop what is harmful. You might ask for a moment to take a walk, so you can clear your head and not get steamrolled or to start ranting at him yourself. He might have some way of saying your insecurities are wearing on him - BEFORE either of you feels overwhelmed and overreacts.

Ok, now THIS is really embarassingly revealing... but when things start to really really get to me, sometimes I curl up around my childhood teddybear. Perhaps you need some kind of "cuddly" or bath salts or other physical comfort that you can turn to before, during, or after an anxiety moment - rather than going to him with it. Plus, it will be a signal to anyone who might walk in on you that you "need a moment".

[hoodieprincess]

Hun,

I know people who have had freak outs (usually by the guy) and then in the end, it all worked out. It isn't unheard of.

Only you can know what's right for you.

Don't think because you're allowing this talk or even if you take him back that you are surrenduring your power. He screwed up and he knows it. Good! Maybe he'll keep that in mind. The point is that the relationship shouldn't have to be about who has the power. It should be a balance. For a while, if he's really serious, he'll have to be serious about the fact that he'll have to prove it. He'll have to understand that his actions and behavior sent you such mixed messages that you had to put your walls back up. They don't go away over night and there is bound to be some lasting effects of what has happened. If he is indeed serious, he has to maintain a sense of enough maturity to know he'll have to deal with them to get this to work.

If you are thinking you're making a mistake, don't allow him back in. Be honest and tell him it was too much to handle and you don't know how to recover from it.

And, if you go to the talk and you decide to try with him still, you still have this stregnth to fall back on, don't ever forget that.

[amola]

Oct 31, 2008 14:23:50 GMT -5 hoodieprincess said:

Don't think because you're allowing this talk or even if you take him back that you are surrenduring your power. He screwed up and he knows it. Good! Maybe he'll keep that in mind. The point is that the relationship shouldn't have to be about who has the power. It should be a balance. For a while, if he's really serious, he'll have to be serious about the fact that he'll have to prove it. He'll have to understand that his actions and behavior sent you such mixed messages that you had to put your walls back up. They don't go away over night and there is bound to be some lasting effects of what has happened. If he is indeed serious, he has to maintain a sense of enough maturity to know he'll have to deal with them to get this to work.

i couldn't have said it better myself.

and if he truly understands this, good. in my experience, a guy may say this and it may sound good, but old habits are hard to break and the undesirable behavior rears its ugly head again and again and again. you have to ask yourself if this is a cycle that you want to get into, because once you are in the cycle, it's hard to break.

trust me.

[super]

I'm not sure what has happened since I last was on here!

You should definitely follow your heart and do what seems right. It's hard for us to get a complete story when we're just hearing it online. It seems that things shouldn't be so complicated though. It's only been a short time and already things are intense and there are long talks etc. I think when it's right it just goes smoothly. If things are already falling apart, that's not a good sign.

When you talk about who has the power, that is also a bad sign. No one should feel powerful or powerless in a relationship.

[jules]

I'm crossing my fingers for you right now that things are going satisfactorily.

I hope you are having a clear discussion regarding needs and expectations. For both of you.

I hope that if both of you decide to continue the relationship and that you are willing to meet each other's needs, that the subsequent actions support what is said. I'm always saying actions speak so much louder than words.

Pretty words are nice, but pretty words have no more weight than the breath that speaks them.

Good luck, babe. Hugs.

[shattered]

Thank you all.

So he came over on Saturday.

He brought me a gift -- a wrought-iron foot-tall Eiffel Tower that you put a tea light in and it glimmers in the dark. He said he saw it in a store window that day and just had to get it for me.

He apologized again, over and over, up and down the wazoo. He got down on his knees in front of me. Said he realized during those two days that we were apart that he couldn't live without me.

He said he called three of his male friends and told them what happened, and they all said he was an idiot. Even when he told them that I ranted at him in the restaurant, supposedly they still said I was right.

He kept repeating that he's wrong about everything and I'm right about everything.

I told him to please stop saying that, that it made me uncomfortable, that I don't think I'm always right, and, most important, that I can forgive him a million times, but that if he actually felt i was trying to keep him from his family, then that is not someone I can be with.

We talked back and forth like that for about three hours.

No yelling. But, still, it felt, well, unsatisfactory and weird.

But we fixed dinner together, and then ate, had wine, lit candles, played music, and had a nice evening.

He spent the night.

We went out for breakfast the next morning. He seemed all in a good mood. When we said goodbye, i was in tears (my emotions got the better of me, everything kinda caught up with me and crashed in on me, and I felt i'd never see him again, etc, etc) and he was polite, but didn't seem terribly sad.

On Monday he left the country, and has called me four times since then telling me how much he misses me, how hard it is without me, how he can't wait to see me....

It's almost like when we're together he wants out, and when we're apart he can't live without me. Always going in circles.

He swears he is setting something up with a work sponsor to get a new visa to move back to the U.S. in about a month.

I have stopped asking him about it. If he wants to do whatever, he can do that, but I will no longer push or even ask him.

He volunteers all this information to me regardless. On Monday, he said he left a message for the lawyer. This morning, he said he was calling the lawyer as soon as he hangs up with me.

I said nothing, I asked nothing, I even didn't think about it for most of the day. Until the laywer called me this evening, asking me whether I'd heard from the French guy, because he haden't, and he was wondering what was going on. He got no message on Monday, and no call today.

Wow. That did bother me. Cause seems there are two options: 1) French guy is lying 2) French guy is hallucinating.

Not sure what I'm doing from here on.

I still have so many strong feelings, but this whole thing is just getting weirder and weirder...

[sheyd]

Well... the bonus of him being overseas is you don't have to do ANYTHING. You can take his calls or not as you want, he can say what he wants. Now you can see his ACTIONS, rather than his words. It doesn't matter WHAT he says to a lawyer - he either will or won't be there. If he isn't - it will peter off on its own. If he does, and he moves overseas... you can deal with him then.

In the meantime... enjoy your life, here, now, in the US, as a single woman. Enjoy friends, enjoy the rush from knowing how attractive you are that you even have this guy wanting you from afar and just ENJOY your own life. Whether he comes or not isn't the important thing, what you do NOW is.

As for the probable lying... if he doesn't contact the lawyer it will be over anyway. But if he DOES just tell you what he thinks you want to hear instead of the truth - how will you ever know what the truth is?

[shattered]

Nov 5, 2008 17:28:54 GMT -5 sheyd said:

Well... the bonus of him being overseas is you don't have to do ANYTHING. You can take his calls or not as you want, he can say what he wants. Now you can see his ACTIONS, rather than his words. It doesn't matter WHAT he says to a lawyer - he either will or won't be there. If he isn't - it will peter off on its own. If he does, and he moves overseas... you can deal with him then.

In the meantime... enjoy your life, here, now, in the US, as a single woman. Enjoy friends, enjoy the rush from knowing how attractive you are that you even have this guy wanting you from afar and just ENJOY your own life. Whether he comes or not isn't the important thing, what you do NOW is.

As for the probable lying... if he doesn't contact the lawyer it will be over anyway. But if he DOES just tell you what he thinks you want to hear instead of the truth - how will you ever know what the truth is?

I know. It's just hard on me emotionally.

Talk about a rollercoaster.

[jules]

Oh man, this guy really knows how to play it.

Please be careful and take good care of your heart.