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Post by Mel (cherry) on Oct 29, 2008 10:50:38 GMT -5
Yep, I have to agree. ((HUG))
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Post by sheyd on Oct 29, 2008 11:18:22 GMT -5
Someone's "true colors" are always a patchwork - and noone's patchwork is all beautiful. It is when their patchwork either has too large a hole in a bad place, or when it is overall ugly, or when it shows a pattern of getting worse that it is time to call it quits.
I also think constantly questioning him if he is in it when he is THERE, went to an immigration lawyer, spent money to travel there, etc. is bound to get annoying - it isn't surprising he eventually reached the breaking point.
Unfortunately - he handled it badly. Who always handles everything great? He is under a lot of stress, as are you. I think the idea that maybe you both (you in particular) need to focus more on YOURSELF in areas that are not about him so your life and happiness is not centered on him.
I also think making it clear you were NOT satisfied with how it went would go a long way. You aren't making that clear, from what you are saying. You took his assurances, you cuddled, you had sex - from his point of view it WAS a good talk - you were apparently happy at the end?
I don't think what he did is acceptable - but hell, there have been many things I have done that aren't either - if you toss someone the first time they aren't perfect you will end up tossing everyone. More important to me, is how YOU handle it, and any future things - with him or anyone else. If someone is ranting at you and you just cry and let them beat you down - you are opening yourself up for abuse. You don't deserve someone's rants - even if you aren't perfect. You have to stand up for yourself, believe in yourself, and also find ways to reassure yourself that you will be fine NO MATTER WHAT and whether he comes to the US or not.
I guess... I am more forgiving - but I also think maybe we need more of that. I don't want to see you letting yourself get abused - and he really has to know his initial method of handling it was NOT something he should repeat - but I also think there is something to communicating and working together with imperfect people (since we all are).
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Post by Mel (cherry) on Oct 29, 2008 11:29:03 GMT -5
There is a difference Shey.
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Post by rocko on Oct 29, 2008 11:37:57 GMT -5
I have on many occasions yelled and then within moments realized what I had done and apologized. That is still a bad thing, but it is not even close to the same as yelling at someone for two hours even after than have been crying the entire time.
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Post by sheyd on Oct 29, 2008 11:41:03 GMT -5
And unless we were there, we don't know which difference it is. This is the first time he has ever been really upset at her - he didn't hit her, he didn't call her names, he was basically upset at constantly being questioned, from what I can tell - but again - we weren't there.
He was inconsiderate - he didn't comfort, he didn't consider her feelings. Few people I know are able to comfort when they are mad and upset and hurt, and I think he might have had reason to be at the end of his patience - but I am not sure about that either - I wasn't there.
Frankly - I think abuse is a strong word and shouldn't be used unless it is a sure thing. A two hour angry shout ONCE is NOT abuse, in my book - unacceptable, to be sure, but not abuse. A pattern of continually yelling at someone - but he doesn't have that pattern, and to assume from one time that he WILL have that pattern is a big jump.
If everytime we yell at someone and don't consider their feelings is abuse - I figure most people are abusive at one point or another - particularly during stress. Particularly parents.
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Post by sheyd on Oct 29, 2008 11:45:19 GMT -5
Two hours is a long time - but I think getting up and walking out would have ended it too. He obviously can't calm down right away once he gets worked up - he is a passionate guy. More important - why stay and LET someone yell? Especially without defending yourself? Why let what they are saying (obviously in anger) define yourself? That is of more concern to me - that idea of just taking it and then getting all huggy and snuggly afterwards - of allowing someone's anger to make you worried they would leave instead of making you want to leave. But that is NOT his issue (although it will become one if he is allowed to continue in this pattern).
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Post by Mel (cherry) on Oct 29, 2008 12:25:10 GMT -5
Looking back into all of our histories I would say that we saw red flags back in the day but didn't listen. I think it speaks volumes about how far she has come and grown that she is seeing them and acknowledging them right off. Shock and sudden vulnerability have the power to "freeze you in your tracks", but she came immediately to a realization that something smelled funny. What a smart woman. But I suppose people may have different ideas about what constitutes abuse.........................
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Post by sheyd on Oct 29, 2008 13:06:54 GMT -5
There are red flags in every relationship. Period. Some of the people who are happiest in their relationships have those red flags too - sometimes alot! Including flags for control and abuse. Hindsite is also 20/20, so it is easy to say "should have" - especially when it DOES turn to abuse.
I think the key is to not let it get there - and yes - DO address the issues and red flags. DON'T let yourself be walked over, or bad patterns begin and continue.
I agree - it can be shocking when you aren't expecting someone to be like that - but the key is where does it go from there. You are right, she IS smart to see it - and smart to not ignore it or make excuses for him. I just don't want everyone to jump all over her to consider him abusive and horrible (especially when no one else really knows all that happened - it may even be worse than it seems!) when it isn't an ongoing pattern, and there are steps that can be taken to make sure it doesn't BECOME one - like warning him it can't happen again and exactly what "it" is - and sticking to the consequence. Something like "if you scream at me without listening again, if my reminding you to talk calmly doesn't work, or you continue yelling when I start crying - that will be IT. We will be DONE. I don't consider that acceptable or loving, and no apology will be enough to make up for it."
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Post by hoodieprincess on Oct 29, 2008 13:27:28 GMT -5
Two hours is a long time - but I think getting up and walking out would have ended it too. He obviously can't calm down right away once he gets worked up - he is a passionate guy. More important - why stay and LET someone yell? Especially without defending yourself? Why let what they are saying (obviously in anger) define yourself? That is of more concern to me - that idea of just taking it and then getting all huggy and snuggly afterwards - of allowing someone's anger to make you worried they would leave instead of making you want to leave. But that is NOT his issue (although it will become one if he is allowed to continue in this pattern). Okay, I couldn't read all of these all the way through before this one caught me so much by shock I had to say something.... Why...You are seriously asking why? Hun, you know I highly respect all you have to say but are you freaking kidding me?!?! People with a history of abuse, and particularly emotional abuse, have habits. They have ways of doing things. It's not saying it's the right thing but it's a learned response to the situation and I don't think questioning her not popping off at him in retaliation is the correct response here. Secondly, we have all had our moments where we didn't act the way we should. Yes, I agree completely. But he should still be in the "getting to know her" phase. And while they've rushed things a bit based upon circumstance, I don't think that in any way, shape, or form should he be this comfortable already to fly off the handle as such. I could totally understand him feeling upset, frustrated, or actually even feeling anger. I am not saying he's an all bad guy. I am not even saying that he's not the guy for her...What I am saying is that his behavior is something to take note of. Given the history of abuse some of us have experience, some people can't tollerate as much as others can. It's just the way it is. And so, being as he was this comfortable to fly off the handle and berate her with things and was irate enough to not be able to comprehend her trying to hold her side of the arguement, I would still say it speaks volumes. While it's hard to have someone who is positvly passionate not also be passionate in negative ways, it still doesn't make it the right thing.
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Post by Mel (cherry) on Oct 29, 2008 13:27:42 GMT -5
There are red flags in every relationship. Period. Some of the people who are happiest in their relationships have those red flags too - sometimes alot! Including flags for control and abuse. Im not sure what kind of relationship you are aware of..........but I don't think that is true.
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Post by redskyatnight on Oct 29, 2008 14:02:24 GMT -5
This is turning into a big mess. As someone who allowed emotional abuse, I am hesitant to label this under that category simply because I wasn't there and this is still unfolding. I'm also not ruling it out either.
There are emotions all over the place. Emotions from shattered and frenchie, and emotions from many of the replies. It is hard to think straight when emotions rear their head. So, if this was me, I'd look at what is objective without emotion. That is much easier said than done when the adreline si still flowing.
I've probably missed some things here, but the following are objective things I've pulled from this post and my memory of frenchie. I've tried to pull everything objective. Things that are measureable and did happen.
He bought a plane ticket for you to Paris He flew over here at his expense Has cousins in the area Visa wasn’t correct Did not contact immigration lawyer in a timely fashion. You were looking for some reassurance from him He yelled He has a list of things he has done for you You are hurt He said he is hurt but does not express it by crying At the end of the argument, he thought you had communicated, you still felt miserable You are angry with yourself for already giving up all my power and having placed myself into a position of sniveling, groveling weakness. You have gone to see immigration lawyer together Enjoys time with his cousins
I don't know how to put all the observations together yet, but its a start. Feel free to add to it.
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Post by sheyd on Oct 29, 2008 14:11:27 GMT -5
I think why is completely justified - it is exactly what needs to be dealt with! If you can understand why you are doing things - recognizing your own patterns of contributory behavior - then you can change THOSE patterns. Why do it? If there is no good reason, then change the pattern that allows it.
I totally agree it doesn't make it the right thing! But it IS part of the passionate personality - which may not be something she can deal with, or deal with healthily, and if the response to those negative sides can't be changed to allow healthy growth - it WOULD become abusive - without him ever meaning to or maybe even realizing it.
And Mel - name me anyone who is happy now in their relationship privately, I will give you at least 2 or 3 red flags from what I know - including you! NO ONE is perfect, or perfect for anyone else. Many people posted their red flags and went on to happy marriages, even. Red flags are signs that the other person won't be ideal - well who is! Plus - they are signs we attribute to someone else that may or may not be their long term actions or words. If the same red flag keeps getting raised, particularly if they are serious ones - it is probably a bad match. Sometime it just takes a conversation about "this is a red flag for me, I don't want a relationship that includes this." and it will change - or the discussion will make the two realize they aren't right for each other.
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Post by Mel (cherry) on Oct 29, 2008 14:26:06 GMT -5
Red flags for my current relationship?? Hmmm now that is interesting.
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Post by jules on Oct 29, 2008 14:34:35 GMT -5
I have to agree with shey here. "Abuse" is a word that is thrown around way too easily. It's not that I don't have sympathy for those who have been in abusive situations. But I don't think every time anyone is not very nice to you it can really qualify as "abuse." To do so is to to minimalize what those who really are abused are going through.
I can't judge the situation here -- that's for shattered to do. I'm just trying to look at it objectively, as is shey, I believe. As for crying... some people find that incredibly manipulative, whether it is meant to be or not. If I'm angry with someone and they start crying, my instinct is to take it as them trying to make me feel guilty for having feelings, which, frankly, pisses me off even more. When I get to the point where I'm really pissed, I walk out, but others stay and yell. Different fighting styles.
There are also cultural expectations to take into consideration here. Americans tend to be somewhat more "touchy feely" whereas Europeans tend to be a bit more blunt about things (which can be considered rude, if you're not used to it.)
Look, I'm not trying to make excuses for anyone, I'm just saying I don't think it is wise to point fingers and label someone based on an argument. It's obviously a stressful situation for both. Whether or not that stress is worth continuing the relationship is up to them to decide. But I do agree that this is an example of both's "fighting styles" and it's good that it is evident so each other can decide whether or not it's something they can deal with or not.
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Post by jules on Oct 29, 2008 14:38:11 GMT -5
There are red flags in every relationship. Period. Some of the people who are happiest in their relationships have those red flags too - sometimes alot! Including flags for control and abuse. Im not sure what kind of relationship you are aware of..........but I don't think that is true. Maybe "red flags" isn't the right term, but I agree with the sentiment. I look at my parents who have been married over 36 years and are still very much in love. They both have quirks that drive the other person crazy. And there have been plenty of fights over the years over any number of things. (Incidentally, my dad yells and my mom cries.) Yet they are still together and have the most successful marriage of anyone I know. I suppose one could say my dad's yelling or my mom's crying are red flags. I just look at it as part of being human (i.e. not perfect).
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